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Post by sercreighton on Jul 5, 2018 14:21:06 GMT -5
Knowing how fond GrrM is of historical parallelisms I'd be shocked if he doesn't do anything with the obvious Elizabeth I similarities. It would be quite an ending for her. She'd get her dream from season 1, except it'd be all upside down: no prince, no pageantry, no glory. I imagine her rule would be solitary and harsh. Of course she would have to earn that ending by dealing with winter issues and Cersei in an intelligent manner. Dealing with adversaries and overcoming a lot of political obstacles with stern rulership was Elizabeth I's key to ruling so long and prosperously. The parallel works and I'd definitely back Sansa's rulership ability after seeing how much she's changed and the way she led things at Winterfell last season. Martin has often said his story has some similarities with The War of Roses, so the Tudor dynasty factor is there, just in a different twist for GoT since the Starks were never Kings/Queens of all Westeros, just of the north. Sansa sitting on the throne would be an unexpected twist considering at the end of Season 7 we were certain the new super-couple (one or both of them) Jon and Daenerys would rule and bring Westeros back together after the war against the white walkers has ended. I still think Jon and Daenerys are the primary "heroes" of the story at this point, but that does not mean the hero wins and rules in the end, it could be someone else who ends up picking up all the pieces and putting civilization back together. With all she learned from Cersei, Littlefinger and even Ramsay, Sansa is ideally suited for ruling. History plays some part and people can find basic connection to many characters in myth nd history. Or even in modern fictional novels. Martin borrows a lot, he doesn't steal but rather he is inspired. Like Bloodraven and Elric, we also get nods in the WoIaF. Not that Bloodraven is Elric but it's a good example of the inspiration. Valyrian steel, and Damascus steel. Or what appears to be a sort of soul sucking effect in the creation of Valyrian steel which is hinted at like with Azur. Of course that was inspired from Moorcocks stories of Elric. I don't think Sophie is trolling, she is doing PR in an interview. They all do it and they all have sort of stereotypical answers to things. Interviewers are usually given questions they can ask, and the Stars have their answers ready to go. Given leaks things appear to generally go with what fans expect most of the time. Though some deny the obvious. I used to talk about this with Nic, we both used to say the same thing to people, "it's not that complicated." Elio over on the old board used to say the exact same thing as well and he's a close friend of Martin's and a co author. There is an older quote by Martin where he references some really basic plot points. Like Jon and Dany, but you can also look at more complex things like symbolism, or other literary devices. The obscure and the obvious. Another thing he mentioned was what he would change in lord of the rings. Like how he thought Gandlf should of been different after dying. I think he is wrong, because Gandalf given he wasn't actually human and a servant of the gods who created him. In that interview he talked about Aragorn and how we knew he was a good ranger but had no idea of how he would rule. So when you look at all the protagonists in his books, he tries to address that question. He made them kids so we could watch them grow and learn and see what they are made of. Everyone basically got a teacher, or we got to meet their teacher. The Lannisters had Tywin who was a huge influence, the Starks had Ned and Cat in the begining. Jon would end up with Mormont, but also Tyrion influenced him, and Donal Noye, even Allister, his uncle, Tormund and Mance, Half Hand. This showed us who he was learning from. Dany had her brother, Drogo, Quaithe, and a few others who influenced her as well as Tyrion. We saw who Marg learned from, Sansa as well, Arya, Bran and Bloodraven. Those lessons were meant to show us who they are but also hints at their greater purpose in the story. It's easy with Jon and Dany they both have easily identifiable hero plots. Arya might seem a little tougher, but it's easy to get the gist, she is going take out some people. Sansa falls more to the political side. With Jon out as a Stark, and Bran being... A rather distantly annoying unemotional twat who thinks he sees everything until Sam is all like no dude you don't, read a book mister know it all. Then you got Arya, who is to say she doesn't get a boyfriend, maybe she doesn't but maybe she does. Like Gendry which would be so interesting given the fact that they mirror young Robert and young Lyanna but actually like eachother, Gendry isn't around for no reason, he helps keep the Baratheons line alive and he's single. Most of the houses are in big trouble when in comes to heirs at this point. Arryn, Baratheon, Martells have been destroyed, house Tyrell destroyed, there is a trend and the major houses have been thinned out considerably. Sansa may be off marriage permanently, though book Sansa is much different. He isn't on the show but I would not leave Edric Dayne out of the mix, similar age has a connection to Jon, Arya, and Ned. Someone should carry on the Stark name. Which leaves Bran, and I would be surprised if he does not end up ruling Winterfell and the north. Once he gets normal again. Maybe Sansa bonds with Tyrion and stays with him, you never know.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Jul 5, 2018 17:53:03 GMT -5
Knowing how fond GrrM is of historical parallelisms I'd be shocked if he doesn't do anything with the obvious Elizabeth I similarities. It would be quite an ending for her. She'd get her dream from season 1, except it'd be all upside down: no prince, no pageantry, no glory. I imagine her rule would be solitary and harsh. Of course she would have to earn that ending by dealing with winter issues and Cersei in an intelligent manner. Dealing with adversaries and overcoming a lot of political obstacles with stern rulership was Elizabeth I's key to ruling so long and prosperously. The parallel works and I'd definitely back Sansa's rulership ability after seeing how much she's changed and the way she led things at Winterfell last season. Martin has often said his story has some similarities with The War of Roses, so the Tudor dynasty factor is there, just in a different twist for GoT since the Starks were never Kings/Queens of all Westeros, just of the north. Sansa sitting on the throne would be an unexpected twist considering at the end of Season 7 we were certain the new super-couple (one or both of them) Jon and Daenerys would rule and bring Westeros back together after the war against the white walkers has ended. I still think Jon and Daenerys are the primary "heroes" of the story at this point, but that does not mean the hero wins and rules in the end, it could be someone else who ends up picking up all the pieces and putting civilization back together. With all she learned from Cersei, Littlefinger and even Ramsay, Sansa is ideally suited for ruling. Exactly. Jon and Dany are the two biggest characters but that doesn't mean they rule in the end. Dany is a great conqueror (she herself admits it); as a ruler she's questionable: she seems utterly bored and frustrated in that position. Jon, in Beric's words, is more of a "soldier" and a commander. Jon and Dany will be hugely significant but not necessarily because they're King & Queen... that may prove to be utterly meaningless. So far in the story kings and queens have done little but harm. I think other characters, like Tyrion and Sansa, are more suited to the tedious side of ruling. Probably not as king/queen though.
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Post by nikma on Jul 5, 2018 18:24:47 GMT -5
But still I can't imagine a compelling scenario where they live and don't rule. Especially Dany. D&D would need to work really hard to sell that and not have "Frank decides that he doesn't want to be POTUS after all" type of situation.
There was not a single scene in 7 seasons that really sets up the idea that Dany may refuse to rule at the end. Jon, yeah, sure. That's clear, but Dany?
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Post by TheArchmaester on Jul 5, 2018 19:55:22 GMT -5
But still I can't imagine a compelling scenario where they live and don't rule. Especially Dany. D&D would need to work really hard to sell that and not have "Frank decides that he doesn't want to be POTUS after all" type of situation. There was not a single scene in 7 seasons that really sets up the idea that Dany may refuse to rule at the end. Jon, yeah, sure. That's clear, but Dany? I feel the opposite way, kind of. I could see a scenario with Jon ruling... precisely because he doesn't want it. Dany's almost chronic obsession with the Iron Throne and her love of titles and whatnot makes me almost sure she won't get near the throne. Nobody gets what they want in this show. Maybe she does rule in the end, but in a different system or in a different capacity.
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Post by sercreighton on Jul 5, 2018 22:05:53 GMT -5
Not wanting to rule doesn't really make you a good or bad ruler, it really depends on the person. Two extreme examples are Lincoln and Hitler, both sought to rule their respective countries. One was the greatest President in US history and the Other was a monster. Some say Tyrion would be best but he has his own issues and he works best as a council member. Some say Sansa but her teacher was LF who taught her everyone is basically out to get you so plan against them. In that world it's not bad or good advice it's just a style he adopted, it had its pros and cons. Manipulation seems bad, but what if it prevents a war. Then again what if it causes a war? Whatever choice a ruler makes generally you want the ends to justify the means.
As for Dany ruling, she has the most loyal base in the series. People act Meereen is a good example. But it really isn't it's just a learning experience. Dany clearly looked out for the slaves she freed and is very devoted to them which is a good quality. They left out some book stuff but still Missy gets the point across to Jon and later we see Jon willingly follow her. She didn't go to save Jon and the fellowship of the wight because she wanted to insure her alliance. She went because she felt responsible for them. And cause she cares about Jon.
Jon gave a great insight into her. Dany gave Jon a lesson he already knew but it served as a great reminder to him, and Jon gave insight into Dany. She made the impossible possible. Maybe she can build a better world than the one they exist in. She did end slavery that's a pretty big Feather in her cap. And Meereen was a specific situation, she wasn't some slaver just taking over and leaving the slave masters to do as they will. She was an outsider, who was changing their entire culture, it's not n easy thing to do. Of course she was unhappy there. She never wanted to be there, she wanted to go home. Home is everything to her, it's the house with the red door. It's where her family ruled and built. The Targaryens made the 7 Kingdoms. In Meereen the slavers would never except her, they would always resist change.
And it's change that is her biggest role, a woman leading a Khalasar. She changed Drogo, and absorbed parts of the Dothraki into herself, she changed the Dothraki, she ended slavery, she brought back the Dragons, she defends the small Folk. She like Jon sees it as her duty to protect her subjects. One of the biggest reasons I think she makes it is because she is that special kind of agent of change. Martin compares her to Nymeria, who made Dorne into what it is today. He's also spent 2 decades training her to rule and giving her the tools she needs to survive and fight. It's like making Arya a Faceless assasin and then not having her kill anyone. You need someone powerful enough to hold Westeros together, and also keep slavers bay slave free. If she goes shit in Essos gets messy fast. In Westeros you gotta have power to keep it a country or else it splits into chaos with everyone trying take as much as they can get. War of the Five Kings is a good example of that. Martin did that for a reason. That's the danger of killing off Jon and Dany, who keeps Westeros from falling into a power grab. Most of the great lords are dead. You think the men will suddenly say oh let Sansa be Queen, come on its Westeros. Or Tyrion, they despise dwarfs. Gendry? Starks might back him but nobody knows who he is.
Sansa could make it in the North, I think she could but the 7 kingdoms is a different animal. There is a reason Martin made Dany as powerful as she is. Because in his world to make it as a women you need power and lots of it. How did Cersei come into power, she had the Lannister name, but it was her rather large display of power that got her the job.
This won't be an ending where the nice person with no army and high ideals creates a utopia by giving a speech that makes everything okay. Nobody is going to send the night King or Cersei a letter and then suddenly they are in charge and the Night King grows a heart gives all the children of the world ice cream cones. You don't need just to get the throne you need it to hold the throne and keep Westeros from falling into the dark ages. Long Night may also be a metaphor for that. Will see next year, we just passed the half way mark for 2018 so probably like a third of the way towards the last episode. A whole third, Yippy. It's going by so quickly it's like counting slow drips of water from a leaky faucet.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Jul 5, 2018 22:18:33 GMT -5
This will be a pretty cool visual if true. KL surrounded by ice!
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Post by nikma on Jul 6, 2018 6:50:45 GMT -5
Dany's almost chronic obsession with the Iron Throne and her love of titles and whatnot makes me almost sure she won't get near the throne. Nobody gets what they want in this show. Yeah, but I just don't see how it makes any sense that she would refuse to rule if she is alive. It's just goes against everything from S1-7.
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Post by nikma on Jul 6, 2018 6:52:00 GMT -5
This will be a pretty cool visual if true. KL surrounded by ice! Another confirmation that the WW will come to KL.
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Post by daeronthegood on Jul 6, 2018 11:57:10 GMT -5
Not wanting to rule doesn't really make you a good or bad ruler, it really depends on the person. Two extreme examples are Lincoln and Hitler, both sought to rule their respective countries. One was the greatest President in US history and the Other was a monster. Some say Tyrion would be best but he has his own issues and he works best as a council member. Some say Sansa but her teacher was LF who taught her everyone is basically out to get you so plan against them. In that world it's not bad or good advice it's just a style he adopted, it had its pros and cons. Manipulation seems bad, but what if it prevents a war. Then again what if it causes a war? Whatever choice a ruler makes generally you want the ends to justify the means. As for Dany ruling, she has the most loyal base in the series. People act Meereen is a good example. But it really isn't it's just a learning experience. Dany clearly looked out for the slaves she freed and is very devoted to them which is a good quality. They left out some book stuff but still Missy gets the point across to Jon and later we see Jon willingly follow her. She didn't go to save Jon and the fellowship of the wight because she wanted to insure her alliance. She went because she felt responsible for them. And cause she cares about Jon. Jon gave a great insight into her. Dany gave Jon a lesson he already knew but it served as a great reminder to him, and Jon gave insight into Dany. She made the impossible possible. Maybe she can build a better world than the one they exist in. She did end slavery that's a pretty big Feather in her cap. And Meereen was a specific situation, she wasn't some slaver just taking over and leaving the slave masters to do as they will. She was an outsider, who was changing their entire culture, it's not n easy thing to do. Of course she was unhappy there. She never wanted to be there, she wanted to go home. Home is everything to her, it's the house with the red door. It's where her family ruled and built. The Targaryens made the 7 Kingdoms. In Meereen the slavers would never except her, they would always resist change. And it's change that is her biggest role, a woman leading a Khalasar. She changed Drogo, and absorbed parts of the Dothraki into herself, she changed the Dothraki, she ended slavery, she brought back the Dragons, she defends the small Folk. She like Jon sees it as her duty to protect her subjects. One of the biggest reasons I think she makes it is because she is that special kind of agent of change. Martin compares her to Nymeria, who made Dorne into what it is today. He's also spent 2 decades training her to rule and giving her the tools she needs to survive and fight. It's like making Arya a Faceless assasin and then not having her kill anyone. You need someone powerful enough to hold Westeros together, and also keep slavers bay slave free. If she goes shit in Essos gets messy fast. In Westeros you gotta have power to keep it a country or else it splits into chaos with everyone trying take as much as they can get. War of the Five Kings is a good example of that. Martin did that for a reason. That's the danger of killing off Jon and Dany, who keeps Westeros from falling into a power grab. Most of the great lords are dead. You think the men will suddenly say oh let Sansa be Queen, come on its Westeros. Or Tyrion, they despise dwarfs. Gendry? Starks might back him but nobody knows who he is. Sansa could make it in the North, I think she could but the 7 kingdoms is a different animal. There is a reason Martin made Dany as powerful as she is. Because in his world to make it as a women you need power and lots of it. How did Cersei come into power, she had the Lannister name, but it was her rather large display of power that got her the job. This won't be an ending where the nice person with no army and high ideals creates a utopia by giving a speech that makes everything okay. Nobody is going to send the night King or Cersei a letter and then suddenly they are in charge and the Night King grows a heart gives all the children of the world ice cream cones. You don't need just to get the throne you need it to hold the throne and keep Westeros from falling into the dark ages. Long Night may also be a metaphor for that. Will see next year, we just passed the half way mark for 2018 so probably like a third of the way towards the last episode. A whole third, Yippy. It's going by so quickly it's like counting slow drips of water from a leaky faucet. Yes to this! I've convinced myself that Dany would die because a particularly loud part of the fandom HATES her and wants to see her taken down a peg/lose everything. I've let that constant barrage of her "obvious" death influence my own thoughts on the story to the point I have accepted that intrepreation as the only logical conclusion. But you're absolutely right, why spend all this time having a character learn to rule when in the end you know they won't. Unlike others I really appreciated ADWDs Dany and Jon chapters. Both were trying to change age old institutions and had attempts on their life as thanks. People act as if ruling is easy, let alone ruling a populace which is hostile to you; and your policies (although for the ultimate good) threaten their way of life. I think Tywin was a successful ruler for so long because he was all about maintaining the status quo as his family greatly benefited from it. Wasn't one of his first acts as Hand to convince Aerys II to reverse the reforms of Aegon V? Ruling becomes exponentially harder when you are implementing massive changes. Westeros post NK will need someone with an understanding of the necessity of change and the difficulty in implementing it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 14:17:12 GMT -5
Dany's almost chronic obsession with the Iron Throne and her love of titles and whatnot makes me almost sure she won't get near the throne. Nobody gets what they want in this show. Yeah, but I just don't see how it makes any sense that she would refuse to take rule if she is alive. It's just goes against everything from S1-7. I don't think Dany refusing to rule goes against S1-7 at all. She doesn't want to rule for the sake of ruling. She wants to rule because from her perspective it's her birthright. Besides, if ADwD showed us ANYTHING, it was that Dany really doesn't actually like ruling very much at all. Yes, she wants to change the status quo, but if she can do that without ruling then I don't think she would have any qualms with stepping aside.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Jul 6, 2018 21:28:46 GMT -5
This will be a pretty cool visual if true. KL surrounded by ice! Another confirmation that the WW will come to KL. Definitely.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Jul 6, 2018 21:32:42 GMT -5
Plenty of evidence to suggest that filming indeed ended today. (And that Maisie was involved: she was/is in Northern Ireland). Several departments posted goodbye messages today.
RIP GOT Filming Spoilers/Leaks 2010-2018.
There may be some winter nature shots to be done in December but we're officially in the post-production stage now.
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Post by nikma on Jul 7, 2018 9:15:04 GMT -5
It's done.
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Post by sercreighton on Jul 7, 2018 10:37:51 GMT -5
Ah so no more pic's from shoots. Kind of sad but they spent almost a decade making a great show and I am thankful for that I do enjoy my thrones and hope they stick the landing.
As for Dany not enjoying ruling. She did not enjoy ruling in Meereen and I think that is understandable and she may not like ruling Westeros. Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown. I believe Aegon I sort of points this out about the Iron throne, that nobody will never sit easy on it. She doesn't enjoy ruling and Jon does not want to rule are just symantics. It's really no different. I don't think Jon or anyone would enjoy it. Robert hated it, Cersei does not appear to be happy. It's really tough job with a lot of responsibility.
As for Dance, one of Martin's biggest problems with publishing the original dance was his focus on Meereen. This ended causing the book to be split into two. So clearly he felt it was important. Conquering is the easy part, holding it not so much. KL is her birthright, her family built it, forged Westeros into a country, and wrote most of their laws.
Dany reminds Jon of the sacrifices that need to be made when you rule. Words he himself had spoken. Everyone has some pride, but you have to know when that pride is getting in the way and when to push it aside. Jon believes in her. She proved she is willing to make sacrifices and put the good of the Kingdom and world over her own wants and desires,
I am sure we get plenty of Drama about everything in season 8, it's a fantasy drama after all. But Martin did say part of the story is one families return to power. Some think that means the Starks, well that already happened in season 6. And they were out of power for a short time respectively. We also know he focuses on the Tags so it's pretty clear who he is talking about. From shoots we know the Unsullied and Dothraki are in KL. Now sure Martin could hand Jon everything, but it was not him that restored the Targayren name it was Dany. The Targs returning to power has always been her story not Jon's, Jon was focused on things north of the Wall and Now he has Dany with him.
Dany could die, Jon could die again, and there is plenty pointing to him also sacrificing himself to save the Kingdom. Both could die, one could die. Both dying kind of goes away from restoring the Targs to power. They could both leave like Nettles and Daemon. Or at least we suspect that, it's only hinted at that he survives. I think MoIaF still follows that idea. Dany dies and most of her work would be undone making everything Martin wrote in Essos pointless. Both die and you have a power vacuum and Martin is not oblivious to this. They say the show and book endings line up that they are going to the same place.
Tyrion would never be considered for the throne, not in that world. Sansa and Arya have no claim and it's doubtful hundreds of lords would choose either of them. Gendry is a bastard, uneducated and unkown. Not really a ton to pick from outside of Jon and Dany. On the show it's even thinner. It's gotta make sense. And the only two the story revolves around here are Jon and Dany.
On a side note Jon and Dany are Gendry's distant cousin so he should get hooked up if he lives and I hope he does, The show already killed off 2 great houses, the Vale is down to Robin, And the Riverlands have Edmure, maybe. Don't know if the show brings him back. 3 Lannisters remain as well as 3 Starks.
I also wonder if the Night King lives. How did they beat him last time? They didn't kill him, he's still around. If he lives Drogon should live, I hate the idea of taking a magic world and turning it into just another rock in space. The whole magic is bad thing, people are bad, magic is magic. Might as well have the comet hit the damn rock.
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Post by konradsmith on Jul 7, 2018 12:33:27 GMT -5
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