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Post by moiaf on Jul 11, 2016 9:21:08 GMT -5
I once read an interesting interpretation of that. The author said that he thought the Dany was being tempted by the past, by the happiness she once had. Yet, at the cries of her new children (the dragons) she the turned away from Drogo and her child to rescue those she now cared for now. The illusion then turns from bright and happy to dull and faded. The author posited that she chose to turn away/let go from her past to peruse her future. Now, that might a little too meta for D&D but they have shown that they could be subtle at times. I do still that he odds of her dying are greater than the odds of her surviving. You know I think the three of us once spent half a week explaining the the imagery of the blue roses in KL and in that scene to a certain piece of angry fruit cocktail. I think you have to take the scene as inspiration from the books which clearly it is and cross interpret between them, because they are very different but they have some similarities. Gods, the good ol'days. Those days were something, I still see her roaming around the Jon threads hating on Dnay and Catelyn. Some people never change. bouquet of symbolism, giggles. I actually had forgotten about that. That was the Dusk Rose that could be used to cure fevers... hmmmm......hot fevers...cold cure...hmmm.... That's interesting, so you're saying the symbolism of the show HOTU vision is not so much a reunion between Dany and Drogo so much as her [Dany] actually finding a family (her true family) beyond the Wall? I do wonder why the inclusion of the Blur Rose in the destroyed remains of the Throne Room, directly across from Dany when she enters. I know people speculated about Jon's royal lineage, and that makes sense, but also it's the way we encounter it. In all the destruction it's the one thing that remains whole, the one thing with color in all the gray. I don't know what I mean, just thinking out loud... I've been thinking about the magic dying, I do see it as a possible ending but something did occur to me recently, Bran. Bran is pure magic, he is probably the greatest greenseer there has ever been and I can't believe that he will die in the end. Additionally, as you mention Jon is magic not only because he's a warg because magic brought him back to life, and of course Dany has own kind of magic. So, are all these characters going to die? I kind imagine it. So, what exactly will happen who knows, the other way I can see both Dany and Jon dying is that they are messianic figures now and so therefore sacrifice is the trope that is expected of them. All hail the queen!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2016 22:25:50 GMT -5
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Post by sercreighton on Jul 15, 2016 0:34:19 GMT -5
You know I think the three of us once spent half a week explaining the the imagery of the blue roses in KL and in that scene to a certain piece of angry fruit cocktail. I think you have to take the scene as inspiration from the books which clearly it is and cross interpret between them, because they are very different but they have some similarities. Gods, the good ol'days. Those days were something, I still see her roaming around the Jon threads hating on Dnay and Catelyn. Some people never change. bouquet of symbolism, giggles. I actually had forgotten about that. That was the Dusk Rose that could be used to cure fevers... hmmmm......hot fevers...cold cure...hmmm.... That's interesting, so you're saying the symbolism of the show HOTU vision is not so much a reunion between Dany and Drogo so much as her [Dany] actually finding a family (her true family) beyond the Wall? I do wonder why the inclusion of the Blur Rose in the destroyed remains of the Throne Room, directly across from Dany when she enters. I know people speculated about Jon's royal lineage, and that makes sense, but also it's the way we encounter it. In all the destruction it's the one thing that remains whole, the one thing with color in all the gray. I don't know what I mean, just thinking out loud... I've been thinking about the magic dying, I do see it as a possible ending but something did occur to me recently, Bran. Bran is pure magic, he is probably the greatest greenseer there has ever been and I can't believe that he will die in the end. Additionally, as you mention Jon is magic not only because he's a warg because magic brought him back to life, and of course Dany has own kind of magic. So, are all these characters going to die? I kind imagine it. So, what exactly will happen who knows, the other way I can see both Dany and Jon dying is that they are messianic figures now and so therefore sacrifice is the trope that is expected of them. All hail the queen! Sorry I have not had time to post, believe it or not I just woke up, my body needs to adjust back to a regular cycle been working crazy hours. Yes fruit cocktail still run around hating the world. "That's not a blue rose that's a dusk rose." I don't know if it is about a reunion beyond the Wall, but lets say the wall is a associated. We know Martin and D&D parallel stuff, it's the clue bat. Take Daario the Storm Crow compared to a Valyrian, did you know in the books he is also tied to horses, he is the head of her cavalry. On the show he is a second son, both crow and second son work for Jon. But when you look at Drogo you might think how is that possible Jon is totally different? And in appearance and personality he is, but on a symbolic level they are not that different. Drogo was a King and we know this is an aspect connected to Jon. Drogo was a horse lord. Jon has multiple connections to riding and horses. The mentions of his mother and horses, he was born in Dorne (famed for their sand steeds) and one last thing. Drogo was her sun and stars, well Jon was born in Dorne and what is the symbol of Dorne? Both Drogo and Jon are shot by arrows. Piece of inside info that accidentally slipped out on the show. Drogo had a color on the show, there was a reason we saw Dany in blue so often in the early season, his color was blue, that's why his war paint is blue. Well Jon is also connected to blue. So yeah I think what we are seeing there is symbolism which is what the Undying in the books and show was all about. Rather than a more literal interpretation I go with symbolism and imagery there. I think the rose in the throne room serves two purposes, one is it hinting about her future, in the books as discussed visions of the future are usually symbolic in nature. In Drogo we get her past but here the child is alive, and the entire scene is connected to the Targaryen throne room a blue rose and the wall. Drogo her sun and stars is symbolic on the past and future all at once the beginning and the end. I believe there is another connection, Drogo killed the white lion, I believe the Night King who is pale as milk glass, is Jon's white lion. Because he is more than likely an ancient Lannister. As you point out the Blue rose is one of two things lit up in that room on the show. Now go back and look at it, what is the blue rose sitting in? A star, and what is a star? A star is a sun, and note the warm coloring and it is in fact illuminated. Unbroken, warm with color, it's the first thing she sees while looking for her dragons. And of course the Warlocks are using it as a trap but they are not controlling her vision. I think that is a mistake some people interpret, Martin has never gone down that road, you can have visions you misinterpret, but not someone creating visions in peoples heads. Someone might appear to Bran or Dany to guide them but they are not the ones creating the the visions. Now on the show there is a very clever trick that they do in the HOTU that you should go look at. They are using a lens filter and lighting wash Dany out, and as she moves from the throne room to beyond the wall she becomes more and more pale, almost ghost like, until she enters the tent. As she enters they don't just remove the filter, they illuminate her with warm light. You can watch her change from pale to that rather nice light tan she had back then. I do wonder who will die, but I actually don't focus much on it, there is nothing that can be done about it. For Martin a bittersweet ending could be the death of Tyrion. I assume some will die and some will live but house Stark and house Targaryen will live on... Ruled under the scrutiny of the Queen. Jon could make it, but Magic life support is not the best thing in the world to keep you going. If the magic goes does he die like Beric? That could also be a parallel in that, Beric used his life to bring another back, could Jon do the same? Or Dany? I don't know, I know their are plenty of magic red priests walking around put a couple in a box and save them for later. I am not sure all magic leaves, it may just transform to something else, after all water magic also existed in this world and magic seems to come and go to begin with but never fully leave. It may be about finding a balance between the magic, who knows? The magic returning was a big thing, but it was not what was messing up the seasons, at least fire magic wasn't, it's also not been that heavily focused on, the seasons are screwed up but nobody in that world thinks the seasons are screwed up, that is their normal.
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Post by moiaf on Jul 18, 2016 9:49:00 GMT -5
Gods, the good ol'days. Those days were something, I still see her roaming around the Jon threads hating on Dnay and Catelyn. Some people never change. bouquet of symbolism, giggles. I actually had forgotten about that. That was the Dusk Rose that could be used to cure fevers... hmmmm......hot fevers...cold cure...hmmm.... That's interesting, so you're saying the symbolism of the show HOTU vision is not so much a reunion between Dany and Drogo so much as her [Dany] actually finding a family (her true family) beyond the Wall? I do wonder why the inclusion of the Blur Rose in the destroyed remains of the Throne Room, directly across from Dany when she enters. I know people speculated about Jon's royal lineage, and that makes sense, but also it's the way we encounter it. In all the destruction it's the one thing that remains whole, the one thing with color in all the gray. I don't know what I mean, just thinking out loud... I've been thinking about the magic dying, I do see it as a possible ending but something did occur to me recently, Bran. Bran is pure magic, he is probably the greatest greenseer there has ever been and I can't believe that he will die in the end. Additionally, as you mention Jon is magic not only because he's a warg because magic brought him back to life, and of course Dany has own kind of magic. So, are all these characters going to die? I kind imagine it. So, what exactly will happen who knows, the other way I can see both Dany and Jon dying is that they are messianic figures now and so therefore sacrifice is the trope that is expected of them. All hail the queen! Sorry I have not had time to post, believe it or not I just woke up, my body needs to adjust back to a regular cycle been working crazy hours. Yes fruit cocktail still run around hating the world. "That's not a blue rose that's a dusk rose." I don't know if it is about a reunion beyond the Wall, but lets say the wall is a associated. We know Martin and D&D parallel stuff, it's the clue bat. Take Daario the Storm Crow compared to a Valyrian, did you know in the books he is also tied to horses, he is the head of her cavalry. On the show he is a second son, both crow and second son work for Jon. But when you look at Drogo you might think how is that possible Jon is totally different? And in appearance and personality he is, but on a symbolic level they are not that different. Drogo was a King and we know this is an aspect connected to Jon. Drogo was a horse lord. Jon has multiple connections to riding and horses. The mentions of his mother and horses, he was born in Dorne (famed for their sand steeds) and one last thing. Drogo was her sun and stars, well Jon was born in Dorne and what is the symbol of Dorne? Both Drogo and Jon are shot by arrows. Piece of inside info that accidentally slipped out on the show. Drogo had a color on the show, there was a reason we saw Dany in blue so often in the early season, his color was blue, that's why his war paint is blue. Well Jon is also connected to blue. So yeah I think what we are seeing there is symbolism which is what the Undying in the books and show was all about. Rather than a more literal interpretation I go with symbolism and imagery there. I think the rose in the throne room serves two purposes, one is it hinting about her future, in the books as discussed visions of the future are usually symbolic in nature. In Drogo we get her past but here the child is alive, and the entire scene is connected to the Targaryen throne room a blue rose and the wall. Drogo her sun and stars is symbolic on the past and future all at once the beginning and the end. I believe there is another connection, Drogo killed the white lion, I believe the Night King who is pale as milk glass, is Jon's white lion. Because he is more than likely an ancient Lannister. As you point out the Blue rose is one of two things lit up in that room on the show. Now go back and look at it, what is the blue rose sitting in? A star, and what is a star? A star is a sun, and note the warm coloring and it is in fact illuminated. Unbroken, warm with color, it's the first thing she sees while looking for her dragons. And of course the Warlocks are using it as a trap but they are not controlling her vision. I think that is a mistake some people interpret, Martin has never gone down that road, you can have visions you misinterpret, but not someone creating visions in peoples heads. Someone might appear to Bran or Dany to guide them but they are not the ones creating the the visions. Now on the show there is a very clever trick that they do in the HOTU that you should go look at. They are using a lens filter and lighting wash Dany out, and as she moves from the throne room to beyond the wall she becomes more and more pale, almost ghost like, until she enters the tent. As she enters they don't just remove the filter, they illuminate her with warm light. You can watch her change from pale to that rather nice light tan she had back then. I do wonder who will die, but I actually don't focus much on it, there is nothing that can be done about it. For Martin a bittersweet ending could be the death of Tyrion. I assume some will die and some will live but house Stark and house Targaryen will live on... Ruled under the scrutiny of the Queen. Jon could make it, but Magic life support is not the best thing in the world to keep you going. If the magic goes does he die like Beric? That could also be a parallel in that, Beric used his life to bring another back, could Jon do the same? Or Dany? I don't know, I know their are plenty of magic red priests walking around put a couple in a box and save them for later. I am not sure all magic leaves, it may just transform to something else, after all water magic also existed in this world and magic seems to come and go to begin with but never fully leave. It may be about finding a balance between the magic, who knows? The magic returning was a big thing, but it was not what was messing up the seasons, at least fire magic wasn't, it's also not been that heavily focused on, the seasons are screwed up but nobody in that world thinks the seasons are screwed up, that is their normal. I don't even want to imagine what kind of shenanigans you've been up to. Sleeping at all kinds of weird hours, hmmm...... Inter resting connection between Drogo and Jon, I had not thought about it that way. Daario I know because we had discussed it before, but not Drogon. Nice! I've said it before but D&D don't get nearly as much credit as they should when it comes to symbolism in the show. They can and have been obvious at times but they have also been very subtle with many of their clues. For me in this instance it can be either or, either they are being very obvious or they are being subtle. It's hard to tell, I think Regarding the rose, it is interesting that, that is about the only part of Dany's HOTU vision that the show kept for their interpretation of the HOTU. In the books the blue flower is growing out of a chink in the wall of ice and filling the air with sweetness. A flower growing out of a harsh environment is representative of hope the sweet smell is the goodness in that hope. As I mentioned above in the show version the rose is the only thing left intact in the complete destruction of the throne room, perhaps a little sign of hope in all the bleakness. Tying that rose to the one in the books. Maybe. I have not hear your theory about the Night's King being a Lannister, interesting, I would like to hear more. I looked at the HOTU vision again and notice the washing out of Dany as she reaches the other side of the Wall and the warmth from the tent. That has been my problem all along with the magic will be gone by the end, magic was almost gone and the season didn't get fixed, they were still messed up. Which means that there is something else going on, he might have alluded to it in the books but I don't think we can say. Whatever it is that is what needs to get fixed. I do believe that the dragons will die out, which makes me sad cause i love dragons.
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Post by sercreighton on Jul 20, 2016 23:12:46 GMT -5
Sorry I have not had time to post, believe it or not I just woke up, my body needs to adjust back to a regular cycle been working crazy hours. Yes fruit cocktail still run around hating the world. "That's not a blue rose that's a dusk rose." I don't know if it is about a reunion beyond the Wall, but lets say the wall is a associated. We know Martin and D&D parallel stuff, it's the clue bat. Take Daario the Storm Crow compared to a Valyrian, did you know in the books he is also tied to horses, he is the head of her cavalry. On the show he is a second son, both crow and second son work for Jon. But when you look at Drogo you might think how is that possible Jon is totally different? And in appearance and personality he is, but on a symbolic level they are not that different. Drogo was a King and we know this is an aspect connected to Jon. Drogo was a horse lord. Jon has multiple connections to riding and horses. The mentions of his mother and horses, he was born in Dorne (famed for their sand steeds) and one last thing. Drogo was her sun and stars, well Jon was born in Dorne and what is the symbol of Dorne? Both Drogo and Jon are shot by arrows. Piece of inside info that accidentally slipped out on the show. Drogo had a color on the show, there was a reason we saw Dany in blue so often in the early season, his color was blue, that's why his war paint is blue. Well Jon is also connected to blue. So yeah I think what we are seeing there is symbolism which is what the Undying in the books and show was all about. Rather than a more literal interpretation I go with symbolism and imagery there. I think the rose in the throne room serves two purposes, one is it hinting about her future, in the books as discussed visions of the future are usually symbolic in nature. In Drogo we get her past but here the child is alive, and the entire scene is connected to the Targaryen throne room a blue rose and the wall. Drogo her sun and stars is symbolic on the past and future all at once the beginning and the end. I believe there is another connection, Drogo killed the white lion, I believe the Night King who is pale as milk glass, is Jon's white lion. Because he is more than likely an ancient Lannister. As you point out the Blue rose is one of two things lit up in that room on the show. Now go back and look at it, what is the blue rose sitting in? A star, and what is a star? A star is a sun, and note the warm coloring and it is in fact illuminated. Unbroken, warm with color, it's the first thing she sees while looking for her dragons. And of course the Warlocks are using it as a trap but they are not controlling her vision. I think that is a mistake some people interpret, Martin has never gone down that road, you can have visions you misinterpret, but not someone creating visions in peoples heads. Someone might appear to Bran or Dany to guide them but they are not the ones creating the the visions. Now on the show there is a very clever trick that they do in the HOTU that you should go look at. They are using a lens filter and lighting wash Dany out, and as she moves from the throne room to beyond the wall she becomes more and more pale, almost ghost like, until she enters the tent. As she enters they don't just remove the filter, they illuminate her with warm light. You can watch her change from pale to that rather nice light tan she had back then. I do wonder who will die, but I actually don't focus much on it, there is nothing that can be done about it. For Martin a bittersweet ending could be the death of Tyrion. I assume some will die and some will live but house Stark and house Targaryen will live on... Ruled under the scrutiny of the Queen. Jon could make it, but Magic life support is not the best thing in the world to keep you going. If the magic goes does he die like Beric? That could also be a parallel in that, Beric used his life to bring another back, could Jon do the same? Or Dany? I don't know, I know their are plenty of magic red priests walking around put a couple in a box and save them for later. I am not sure all magic leaves, it may just transform to something else, after all water magic also existed in this world and magic seems to come and go to begin with but never fully leave. It may be about finding a balance between the magic, who knows? The magic returning was a big thing, but it was not what was messing up the seasons, at least fire magic wasn't, it's also not been that heavily focused on, the seasons are screwed up but nobody in that world thinks the seasons are screwed up, that is their normal. I don't even want to imagine what kind of shenanigans you've been up to. Sleeping at all kinds of weird hours, hmmm...... Inter resting connection between Drogo and Jon, I had not thought about it that way. Daario I know because we had discussed it before, but not Drogon. Nice! I've said it before but D&D don't get nearly as much credit as they should when it comes to symbolism in the show. They can and have been obvious at times but they have also been very subtle with many of their clues. For me in this instance it can be either or, either they are being very obvious or they are being subtle. It's hard to tell, I think Regarding the rose, it is interesting that, that is about the only part of Dany's HOTU vision that the show kept for their interpretation of the HOTU. In the books the blue flower is growing out of a chink in the wall of ice and filling the air with sweetness. A flower growing out of a harsh environment is representative of hope the sweet smell is the goodness in that hope. As I mentioned above in the show version the rose is the only thing left intact in the complete destruction of the throne room, perhaps a little sign of hope in all the bleakness. Tying that rose to the one in the books. Maybe. I have not hear your theory about the Night's King being a Lannister, interesting, I would like to hear more. I looked at the HOTU vision again and notice the washing out of Dany as she reaches the other side of the Wall and the warmth from the tent. That has been my problem all along with the magic will be gone by the end, magic was almost gone and the season didn't get fixed, they were still messed up. Which means that there is something else going on, he might have alluded to it in the books but I don't think we can say. Whatever it is that is what needs to get fixed. I do believe that the dragons will die out, which makes me sad cause i love dragons. Oh I am not getting up to anything, everyone else keeps getting up to epic levels of stupid and I gotta go try and make them less stupid. But you can't really make them less stupid, just less dangerous, don't really have the time for educational seminars to try and fix whatever is broken. I am going on 32 hours without sleep by the way, so this post should be interesting. You know how I do it? As little coffee as possible, I drink water. Ok I don't really drink coffee to begin with, I only tell people I work with it's coffee, It's Coco, sometimes a non fat white mocha no whip. I am a closet coco fan, even the girls at Starbucks know, I don't have to say a thing. I hate ordering it public. So I just drink water instead of any coffee which is really either Coco or a White Mocha latte non fat no whip. Ok so where were we? D&D, yeah they can be obscure and obvious but Martin is no different, as we have talked about many, many, many times. I used three, get it? Why? Cause you were talking about three on a different thread. I don't generally talk about three, not since year one with the Corn code. It's relevant I just kind of avoid the topic after that train wreck. The blue rose on the show is both obvious and obscure, and then later blatant trolling. D&D like to troll the book fans, the conversation between Robert and Ned with the blue rose constantly popping up over Neds shoulder. Now to just an unsullied that meant nothing, but the conversation about Ned protecting a Child from Robert and that rose popping up was sort of subtle because the image is a bit obscure. But not all that subtle, they give you a much better view of that rose in season two in the HOTU scene, now it's repetitive, another Martin trait. You even got a mother a husband and a philosophized child, along with the wall. So different but also the same. Then of course the third time they just come out trll bats a blazing with the Dusk rose. They escalate the symbolize through the series, and think it was 2 years ago we started talking about the parallels between the two picking up on the show as well. This season was no exception, and they did the parallels with a lot of characters. Like take Davos and Tormund the left and right hands of Jon. Davos is going to stay sober, stay awake and going to walk. Tormund is going to get Drunk, and pass out. While they fill a similar need for Jon here we see an inversion. They are lightly juxtaposed, very different but still the same, same basic role. They started doing that more and more with Jon and Dany in season 5, even the posters or images they were posting on face book. They were really putting it out there, and they were maintaining that inversion, like in the beheading. The beheading of love and the beheading of hate. The Night's King is a Lannister theory, well I was planning on having it done already but the world decided things were to quiet and went full retard again. I swear to god, if one more idiot shoots someone I am going to lose it. I shouldn't say that because it's probably going to be nuts here this weeked. I'll try and finish it, it's kind of like the Euron theory I wrote awhile back, it's about following the bread crumbs. But think of it like this, there is a lot of Lion symbolism in the books, and the Lion of Night who fills in rather nicely for the Night's King is sort of one of those obvious clues that is not so obvious. There is also this weird thing about Winterfell and it's towers and who built it, or at least built part of it. I suggest that a great many of the older castles were in fact built by Andals as we have seen the closest thing to the First men in the Wildlings and their technological level is greatly stunted while the Andals are all about Castles and Sigils and such. Do you remember Bran and the Gargoyle? He says it may have been a lion once , now I think that was a Tyrion clue,(Tyrion fans don't take offense it's not an insult just symbolism) but also it's connected to those odd points in the world book about the first keep and the towers. The North as we have seen is easily invaded by sea, so why come through the Neck. Plus it gets into the first king and we are told the First men are no kneelers over and over, and the Barrow Knight's, in fact Night's watch may have serve a duel meaning in the books, Night's King = Knight's King and that is was the Andals were known for. Also for Axes the men of the axe and we get a lot of that imagery of Kings and Axes in the North, plus there names are more like Andal names. Have you met a Wildling with a last name yet? There is really way to much to put into order still and but these are general ideas about it. Night Fort Stories about Mad axe and the Thing that came in the Night, the Andal king who ate his son. In fact I think most of the stories we were told about the Night Fort are about the same person and it's a disorganized order of events. Also the fact that the only other Girl named Dany happens to be tied to the Night Fort as well, Danny Flint. The curse upon the Andals, and Tywell and Oswell, the Lion (Sun Leo) and Oswell (Moon Vale). I think Tywell ate Oswell, I think that is who the Rat cook fed Tywell. Oswell was probably married off to a Queen or Princess of the Vale. Thye probably united to fight the North or something. But it's similar to the idea of how Dany transformed, she didn't eat anyone of course but if you recall Dany's Moon symbolism that transformed to sun symbolism and you should we have like a 200 page discussion on it, they here we see the symbolic and the literal again. I also think Danny Flint would be the girl who became the Night's Queen. If Euron is any sort of clue to who or how the Night's King was, and I think he is, then this is one serious sick little Lion. I mean deep, deep issues. Oh almost forgot there is the symbolism of 3 and Azor killing a Lion. If you assume that the Lion is lets say cold and darkness and Nissa is light and fire, then we also have the entire theory of Sun and moon. Though Azur didn't actually fix the problem as we know. Temper in water, didn't work, temper in the male symbolism could be day or night, same for Nissa as like we see with the Dany and Jon the roles are interchangeable. Sun and Moon is Male, Female, Child. Or Ice, Fire, Water. Notice his order is backwards, and he is destroying instead of creating. That has been my constant theme about Azor, that's how I think he broke the world. He tried to end death and suffering by killing love and life. But that is not how you fix thing. That's all I got right now, I am going to sleep, I bet the pillows are nice and cool, cool pillows.
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Post by Envie on Jul 21, 2016 11:42:08 GMT -5
Hello sercreighton , well met! I have finally taken some time this morning to read through this wonderful thread. It's been on my bucket list for awhile now as I've wanted to join in some great discussion about Daenerys. I'm still unraveling that House of the Undying vision for her in my own mind. Comparing the book version to show version and all, it's still just as mysterious and curious. *Edit: I know this post is in the book section, but bear with me here a bit as I intend to turn my thoughts to that after pointing out some symbolism in general. As moiaf said, Dan and David do not get enough credit for their symbolism clues on the show and have even created their own unique bits separate from the books. I think folks are finally starting to get on board with it now that we've had those clever spirals inlaid as stone circles, horse corpse art, Dothraki horses circling Daenerys, and living human arms holding up Daenerys in her crowd surfing scene. Those are all show-specific and interesting parallels between life and death / fire and ice. The spiral is an ancient symbol that can be traced back to stone age times in our own world. It is a feminine symbol representing fertility, death and rebirth and regeneration.Quoting a great article on that here: bluewinterrose.wordpress.com/2016/06/08/signs-and-portents-what-does-the-spiral-motif-mean/Sometimes their clues are very subtle on the show and other times as noted, they full on smack the audience in the face with it the same as Mr. Martin has done ... Most of my motivation for deciding to lead everyone (I have a dozen or so willing victims so far) through an epic re-watch of the show series is so I can pick apart each episode for those brilliant little hidden nuggets of symbolism and foreshadowing. But I have to try and employ some brevity (not a strong trait for me) as the premiere episode alone took me three separate parts to pick apart! I do intend episode 2 as only one post. I'm working on it! :work: But before I go on seeking answers from those of you here with deeper understanding into Daenerys symbolism, I need to ask: Is there a clear image anywhere of the blue rose in the throne room scene for her House of the Undying vision? For some reason I always thought that was left out of the vision. Comparing and contrasting between what we know from the books and what we're then presented with on the show version is great fun. I know some folks prefer sticking only to one or the other in a neat and tidy fashion, as it can get quite confusing when mushing the two together. But unraveling a ball of yarn is only fun once it's a big pile on the floor to roll around in is my take on it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2016 22:01:50 GMT -5
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Envie
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Post by Envie on Jul 21, 2016 23:26:54 GMT -5
Thanks @nictarion! I have seen that image before and re-watched the scene, but it's blurry and I wasn't sure that was a rose.
At any rate, the show's version is so much different from the books we could probably do a whole topic discussion just on that alone in comparison.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2016 0:48:01 GMT -5
If you zoom in it definitely looks like a rose to me. There's red one's in the throne room too, I don't think it's a coincidence that was so prevelant in Dany's vision.
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Post by Envie on Jul 22, 2016 10:55:50 GMT -5
If you zoom in it definitely looks like a rose to me. There's red one's in the throne room too, I don't think it's a coincidence that was so prevelant in Dany's vision. That one behind Ned is definitely much clearer than the one in Dany's vision. Odd they'd show that too considering it's glass and the rest of the throne room is destroyed so you'd think it would be broken. But to steer this back on topic to the book version ... I much prefer the blue rose in the ice wall as was written. I suppose the show writers thought that might be too obvious but really, book readers have been pretty confident about the R+L=J theory for so long it probably wouldn't have changed much except to confirm it much earlier on the show. They put tons of foreshadowing in anyways. In the books, you really have to do your note-taking and I appreciated all the much more detail oriented readers than myself who did so. Just as I appreciate the great essays and articles @moiaf has written on the parallels between Jon and Daenerys. To me, Daenerys fits the ideal of Azor Ahai the most though I've never been one to subscribe to an actual living person replaying the prophecy exactly or literally as many do. I think much like "song" probably doesn't literally mean a song, but rather a story, so too is the "Prince" more symbolic than literal.
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Post by sercreighton on Jul 27, 2016 2:06:36 GMT -5
Hello sercreighton , well met! I have finally taken some time this morning to read through this wonderful thread. It's been on my bucket list for awhile now as I've wanted to join in some great discussion about Daenerys. I'm still unraveling that House of the Undying vision for her in my own mind. Comparing the book version to show version and all, it's still just as mysterious and curious. *Edit: I know this post is in the book section, but bear with me here a bit as I intend to turn my thoughts to that after pointing out some symbolism in general. As moiaf said, Dan and David do not get enough credit for their symbolism clues on the show and have even created their own unique bits separate from the books. I think folks are finally starting to get on board with it now that we've had those clever spirals inlaid as stone circles, horse corpse art, Dothraki horses circling Daenerys, and living human arms holding up Daenerys in her crowd surfing scene. Those are all show-specific and interesting parallels between life and death / fire and ice. The spiral is an ancient symbol that can be traced back to stone age times in our own world. It is a feminine symbol representing fertility, death and rebirth and regeneration.Quoting a great article on that here: bluewinterrose.wordpress.com/2016/06/08/signs-and-portents-what-does-the-spiral-motif-mean/Sometimes their clues are very subtle on the show and other times as noted, they full on smack the audience in the face with it the same as Mr. Martin has done ... Most of my motivation for deciding to lead everyone (I have a dozen or so willing victims so far) through an epic re-watch of the show series is so I can pick apart each episode for those brilliant little hidden nuggets of symbolism and foreshadowing. But I have to try and employ some brevity (not a strong trait for me) as the premiere episode alone took me three separate parts to pick apart! I do intend episode 2 as only one post. I'm working on it! :work: But before I go on seeking answers from those of you here with deeper understanding into Daenerys symbolism, I need to ask: Is there a clear image anywhere of the blue rose in the throne room scene for her House of the Undying vision? For some reason I always thought that was left out of the vision. Comparing and contrasting between what we know from the books and what we're then presented with on the show version is great fun. I know some folks prefer sticking only to one or the other in a neat and tidy fashion, as it can get quite confusing when mushing the two together. But unraveling a ball of yarn is only fun once it's a big pile on the floor to roll around in is my take on it. Hi, I got back in less than a week... Sort of. Moiaf told me about the rewatch but I had not seen any times for it or when it would be discussed. I don't really get caught up in book only and show only, as I consider both to be relevant to each other, I just try not to break rules when I can. As Ran once told me, I don't know if you know Ran, but as Ran once told me I have more warning points than anyone else has ever had on his forum. My findings with D&D simply lead me to the conclusion that they can't always do things the exact way they were done in the books for obvious reasons, and as Martin points out D&D generally cut to the chase more than he does but are following the same basic outline. More than anything they let his work and style inspire their own work and style which is why they do a lot of what they do. Like the blue rose, they could never fully work in the house of the Undying from the books, it is one of the largest Jon conformations in the R+L theory and even on the show a blue rose growing out of the wall would of created to many questions as it is obvious symbolism as opposed to some stain glass windows. So I just finished that essay and I liked it, though there were some of what I would consider misguided assumptions. With Martin I find it is better to take what is given and assume as little as possible. Dany as the Night's Queen? Possible, but how probable? I think that is what the Night's King would like, and I think Danny flint was probably the last Night's Queen, or at the very least a clue about her. Though her name, the Night Fort, and the symbolism of Widows watch lay the ground work for some interesting symbolism. The Mormont fist was very interesting to me, as the symbolism in the field may lead a fan to recall that lovely bit other life model sculpting? And so you have Mormont on a fist and Mormont making a fist. But it is what is within the fist that is the tell, that is Dany's ring, was it a wedding Ring? I don't know, but it was the stone that should be paid attention to there. It's pearl, placed as possible egg or moon which also acted as an egg. In the books the pearl is symbolic of a child or children in Dance Dany wears a dress covered in pearls because she is mother to so many. And of course you have the story of the Lion and Maiden and their Child who road around in a giant pearl. In a sense you can see a connection to Jon in Mormonts hand, both a Dragon egg, and the symbolism of the child. Me and Moiaf once talked about those spirals awhile back, so do a post named Bear Queen who vanished from the face of the earth. I don't remember what it was exactly but BQ wrote about them and Dany at Yunkai, while the symbolism is feminine, the spiral has many meanings and it may be all of them. I try to avoid the math references with Martins work, it's not that I think they are wrong it's just trying to debate a Golden spiral with someone who has no idea what it is and that is a lot of people can be confusing. I think adding storm patterns to the the symbolism may be of some help, as the patterns contain a pole a radius and an azimuth. As the show associates both Dany and the Night's King with storms as well. And storms are tied to water which is very important. As usual the symbolism is inverted, life and death, hot and cold, ice and fire. Location is also significant here, one is in the west and North, the other in the south and east, thus truly representing natural polarities. Now the symbol itself is not only tied to women, but also some gods like Vishnu the Hindu god King. Vishnu is symbolic of of the sky, water, and Kings, he is also blue. Though in Martins world he is a giant tool in the form of the Night's King. Why? Because he is Martin. In the books Euron is sort of like this combination of Dany and the Night's King, especially if you read the sample chapters, while he behaves like the Night's King, his symbolism is attaching him to Valyria and he too dreams of a Queen "the only one worthy of him." He like Jon, the Night's King and Daario is also a Crow. Three of these men are black crows which is one of the colors tied to Dany, like he dragon and her throne. While the other is tied more to winter, the White Raven, the opposing piece. I think Euron will play out as a second act finally player and that Jon will take up in his place, though Jon's nature is more like Dany's he still is symbolic of the cross between ice and fire, and he fills in well enough for a king role and clearly we have Valyrian symbolism. That is really all I would add to that essay. There is the Night's queen and the possibility of the Night's Queen role with Dany, but in the story roles are created from choices and that is an alternate possibility for Dany. I think that is Martin's spin on the Night's King, he is seeking Dany that's his purpose in the story. I think that is the love triangle Martin once mentioned. Though I feel the symbolism leads me to Jon, as the Night's Kings nature is malevolent much like Euron's. I also tend to think Dany's birth is what woke him, hence the storm. These don't tend to be regularly discussed topics. I find many fans are much happier writing their own story and then getting mad at Martin or D&D when it did not turn out the way they wanted. The clues are their, it's a bit of a puzzle but I feel once the symbolism is understood the story itself id unlocked as both the show and the books have been very consistent with their symbolism. Understanding the symbolism and literary devices is not that hard, my own belief is that within the parallels the symbolism exists with the 3 act structure and the same act is essentially repeating with reoccurring themes. Always a horned lord, always a dragon, always three parts, and the symbolism in the parallels is always inverted. Robert, the horned lord of act 1, a blue eyed king with an army of winter and an army of water and an army of the moon and storm. After all Robert the Horned lord was a storm lord, a blue eyed king. Stannis is no different, and FAegon is that sub for Rhaegar with the obvious connections. That's all second act, the third and final act has another Blue eyed King/ Horned Lord/ Storm Lord, with an army of winter, moon and water. 3 Kings, three similar paths, and similar symbolism, but the last king is the real deal, that's the magic, that's the true power and threat. Lyanna was the rose of the first act, while I think Sansa may be the rose of the second, though it could be Marg or even Loras. And of course Jon is the rose of the final act. While some of the roles are moved around, the symbolism remains. I think where Lyanna had a choice in the first act, Dany has the choice in the 3rd. Now you got this to choose from i.imgur.com/uA4zk7u.jpgWait sorry, I got confused, I meant this images.techtimes.com/data/images/full/91873/nights-king-jpg.jpg?w=600Oh boy, that's ummm yeah, ever girls dream. Or this cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/6aakD0Yc5LfNkX_7pARN5QnKXy8=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2989328/kit_harington3.0.jpgNow I know what your thinking, blue cause you know so appealing. But I am going to go out on a limb and pick the underdog Jon Snow. But don't get used to this idea 66.media.tumblr.com/25735797d35fea94599b46020538e0e7/tumblr_oa1syejISe1tzojdco2_1280.jpgCause you know the other guy is blue, and as you can see from this totally unshow related pic she likes blue. www.ew.com/sites/default/files/styles/tout_image_gallery_612/public/i/2013/03/13/game-of-thrones-dany-laughing.jpg?itok=UsO9Zss1
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Post by sercreighton on Jul 27, 2016 2:08:19 GMT -5
If you zoom in it definitely looks like a rose to me. There's red one's in the throne room too, I don't think it's a coincidence that was so prevelant in Dany's vision. Maybe it's a blueberry, yeah, maybe the Targaryens were all about blueberry's they are loaded with antioxidants.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2016 2:45:09 GMT -5
If you zoom in it definitely looks like a rose to me. There's red one's in the throne room too, I don't think it's a coincidence that was so prevelant in Dany's vision. Maybe it's a blueberry, yeah, maybe the Targaryens were all about blueberry's they are loaded with antioxidants. Blueberries ain't blue!
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