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Post by breakfest on Jul 16, 2016 5:40:18 GMT -5
Erdogan is a disgrace but this is some drastic action. Military involvement is a delicate thing in Turkey considering their history of coups. Also it would really be nice if one of the most important Middle Eastern allies could have some stability right about now. And of course if they fail that'll only strengthen and consolidate Erdogan's power. You pretty much called it here. This seems to have been resolved so effectively for Erdogen, though with much more conflict than was initially being reported.
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Post by konradsmith on Jul 16, 2016 5:51:17 GMT -5
And of course if they fail that'll only strengthen and consolidate Erdogan's power. You pretty much called it here. This seems to have been resolved so effectively for Erdogen, though with much more conflict than was initially being reported. There're a number of reasons why I now think that he may have had a hand in all of this from the get-go. But even if he didn't, this worked perfectly to achieve his ends and will propel him to exactly the kind of position he's aimed for for years. And it won't be pretty.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2016 7:36:04 GMT -5
You pretty much called it here. This seems to have been resolved so effectively for Erdogen, though with much more conflict than was initially being reported. There're a number of reasons why I now think that he may have had a hand in all of this from the get-go. But even if he didn't, this worked perfectly to achieve his ends and will propel him to exactly the kind of position he's aimed for for years. And it won't be pretty. Maybe he just got bored while he was on holiday. The fact that it failed is an easy way to show how strong and how numerous his supporters are. All the more reason to think it's a set-up if it shows how powerful he is when he's not even there.
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Post by izzue on Jul 16, 2016 10:13:19 GMT -5
Well said izzue ... it seems one terrible incident after the next is costing many innocent people their lives because one person decides to go crazy. I refuse blame all this on 'terrorism' which is mostly just a convenient way to disguise racism by those who think their own race is somehow without blame in what I truly believe is a world-wide human problem. Our species is ill ... not well, and we need to fix it on so many levels. People are just snapping. Coming unglued. Mental health seems to be more and more to blame than anything. We're sick on the inside, not the outside. Why? A man goes crazy and shoots people in a night-club. Snipers kill cops at a "Black Lives Matter" protest. Man goes crazy and shoots children and teachers in a school (these are just a few US examples) .. but it's everywhere in the world. France has suffered a lot lately too. It's not even a gun issue (though guns in the US are still a problem) when a man with a vehicle can kill that many people in minutes.
It's not Black lives matter, or police, or children, or gays, or anyone specific ... it's HUMAN LIVES MATTER. I am sad. And on 911 the 'weapons' that turned huge jets into lethal weapons that could take down 110 story buildings were box cutters, for crying out loud! Just have to add . . . Does this remind anyone of, say, Margaery, or Cersei? "I am the Queen!"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2016 10:35:04 GMT -5
Well said izzue ... it seems one terrible incident after the next is costing many innocent people their lives because one person decides to go crazy. I refuse blame all this on 'terrorism' which is mostly just a convenient way to disguise racism by those who think their own race is somehow without blame in what I truly believe is a world-wide human problem. Our species is ill ... not well, and we need to fix it on so many levels. People are just snapping. Coming unglued. Mental health seems to be more and more to blame than anything. We're sick on the inside, not the outside. Why? A man goes crazy and shoots people in a night-club. Snipers kill cops at a "Black Lives Matter" protest. Man goes crazy and shoots children and teachers in a school (these are just a few US examples) .. but it's everywhere in the world. France has suffered a lot lately too. It's not even a gun issue (though guns in the US are still a problem) when a man with a vehicle can kill that many people in minutes.
It's not Black lives matter, or police, or children, or gays, or anyone specific ... it's HUMAN LIVES MATTER. I am sad. And on 911 the 'weapons' that turned huge jets into lethal weapons that could take down 110 story buildings were box cutters, for crying out loud! Just have to add . . . Does this remind anyone of, say, Margaery, or Cersei? "I am the Queen!" "Any man who must 'I am the King', is no true king at all."
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Post by izzue on Jul 16, 2016 10:37:52 GMT -5
@roose, Yes! How soon I forget about Joff and that wonderful small council meeting! I do really miss Tywin at times.
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Post by Envie on Jul 16, 2016 12:12:24 GMT -5
@roose , Yes! How soon I forget about Joff and that wonderful small council meeting! I do really miss Tywin at times. I was going to reply with the same quote, but @roose beat me too it. So true, so true!
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Post by konradsmith on Jul 17, 2016 3:44:35 GMT -5
Now Erdogan wants the U.S. to hand over the guy he's blaming the "coup" on, who it seems lives in Pennsylvania. Thankfully the State Department's asking that he proves the connection between Gulen and the coup which will delay Erdogan's raving for a moment as he makes some shit up. But seriously, if Turkey's people want to go in that direction and back this fucker, kick them out of NATO. Sure they can still be allies we accept through gritted teeth but there's no way an increasingly theocratic and increasingly dictatorial country should be allowed the means to get the West to back it via Article 5 in whatever shitty war Erdogan wants to cook up.
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Post by Diablotion on Jul 17, 2016 3:47:42 GMT -5
So.. did the coupe fail? Confusing reports coming out of Turkey at the moment. It's hard to know who to believe given Erdogan's hold over the press in Turkey. But all sign's point to the coup failing utterly. And imo towards a sort of Reichstag fire type of scenario as well. Aye. I don't know why, but this whole "coup" smells fishy to me.
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Post by konradsmith on Jul 17, 2016 4:09:55 GMT -5
It's hard to know who to believe given Erdogan's hold over the press in Turkey. But all sign's point to the coup failing utterly. And imo towards a sort of Reichstag fire type of scenario as well. Aye. I don't know why, but this whole "coup" smells fishy to me. Oh totally. First of all why attempt a coup when Erdogan's not in either Ankara or Istanbul? The most important thing for the troops to have done other than get control of state media would be to arrest or kill him. But he was on vacation. They could've done this at any time when he was in the city and easy to arrest. On top of that all of the soldiers that they've captured have said they were told it was a training exercise. And yet Erdogan's apparently going to try to have them executed anyways. And all of the shootings that were done on pro-Erdogan protesters didn't come from them, it came from helicopters, which could as easily been controlled by pro-Erdogan forces as by the soldiers who didn't even know it was a coup. And how the fuck did all of the mosques in Istanbul and Ankara immediately start calling citizens simultaneously to the streets to deft the curfew? Then we have Erdogan flying into Istanbul safely. He said that he managed to do that because the people behind the coup were unable to track his plane. Except EVERYONE ON THE REDDIT COUP LIVETHREAD WAS ABLE TO TRACK HIS FUCKING PLANE! Of course the coup's airpower could have done the same! If it ever existed or was an even slightly-tangible threat. And then he said that after he left the place he was vacationing at was attacked in an attempt on his life. Except no one there reported that anything of the kind happened. We just have his word for that. And of course it's all immediately blamed on Gulen. Who's in Pennsylvania. But they all know immediately that he orchestrated it from there. They all denounce him at once. And then when it looks like they've won, how does the government react? They arrest a fuckton of officers and judges and people they've probably wanted dead for years. And I'm sure they'll end up executing most of them without letting them be interviewed or tell their side of the story. Basically he's using this to get rid of all the secularist forces and anyone who still gives a fuck about Ataturk's legacy and what that country is supposed to be. It's not only the Reichstag Fire, it's the Night of the Long Knives as well. Now it could be that it was legit and it was just an utter failure which finally gave Erdogan the chance to do the purges he's daydreamed about for years. But imo given the limits on the press in Turkey and his deviousness and admiration of Hitler that this is totally his handiwork and something he knows he can get away with.
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Post by konradsmith on Jul 17, 2016 20:20:14 GMT -5
This too. I watched the radar coverage of his plane and wondered what the fuck was going on there.
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Post by konradsmith on Jul 18, 2016 14:24:50 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2016 12:01:23 GMT -5
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Post by konradsmith on Jul 23, 2016 2:25:32 GMT -5
So apparently the kid who did it was a dual citizen of Germany and Iran. Which means he was neither an ISIS sympathizer or a far right nutcase, which were the two main theories circulating before the facts came in. Now he may have been a radicalized Shia or just another angry isolated mentally ill young man but I really hope that people who know anything about the Middle East will be very clear in making the point that this has nothing to do with the refugee crisis and very little to do with ISIS. A) He's a citizen and B) Iran is a more active enemy of ISIS than most of the West's Middle Eastern allies.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2016 6:23:40 GMT -5
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