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Post by moiaf on Apr 18, 2017 12:58:17 GMT -5
I'm wondering now if they are waiting for Jaime to abandon her at the end of next season before showing her going truly mad. By then she'll be wholly alone (will un-Gregor still be around?). Just a thought. Maybe. But I doubt his departure would make her snap. She will be alone but still on top of the world. Assuming that the theory that Jaime kills her is correct, I think it would be more powerful if Jaime has to kill the woman he knows and loves and not just a madwoman. Killing Mad Queen Cersei would be easy. You'd just be putting her out of her misery. I think Cersei's death will be portrayed as tragic and not at all like Joffrey's or Ramsay's. I never imagined Cersei being "frosting at the mouth" crazy, more like delusion. Jaime killing her would be hard either way, having to take Cersei's life no matter her condition would still be a huge blow. What I had imagined is with her being delusional and paranoid and Jaime having to kill her, she'll have a moment of clarity when he has his hand wrapped around her neck. Jaime would see that, but he wouldn't stop because he knows what he has to do. Adding to the tragic nature of it all. I do think we'll see mad Cersei but I think it'll be much more nuanced then people think.
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Post by moiaf on Apr 18, 2017 13:00:50 GMT -5
I am not sure if Cersei is actually crazy or not. Some of her actions like blowing up the Sept and torturing Unella make her clearly look unhinged, if not just super reckless and cruel. Shes definitely a bully, she's cruel and vengeful and hates pretty much everyone. But I'm not sure if she's actually insane or just a total asshole. She's a high functioning alcoholic whose been consumed by grief but is also overcome with ambition. Idk she cray but maybe not cray. I think she might be tethering on the brink. She's not crazy, crazy at the moment, but she' has some serious fucking problems, you don't blow up a Sept (holly place with innocent people inside) and not be a little unhinged. But s I said in my previous comment, i think her madness will be more nuanced.
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Post by TheMadQueen on Apr 18, 2017 13:03:39 GMT -5
I am not sure if Cersei is actually crazy or not. Some of her actions like blowing up the Sept and torturing Unella make her clearly look unhinged, if not just super reckless and cruel. Shes definitely a bully, she's cruel and vengeful and hates pretty much everyone. But I'm not sure if she's actually insane or just a total asshole. She's a high functioning alcoholic whose been consumed by grief but is also overcome with ambition. Idk she cray but maybe not cray. I think she might be tethering on the brink. She's not crazy, crazy at the moment, but she' has some serious fucking problems, you don't blow up a Sept (holly place with innocent people inside) and not be a little unhinged. But s I said in my previous comment, i think her madness will be more nuanced. exactly. No matter what, a sane person does not blow up a church full of hundreds of innocents in the middle of her own. Period. So yes, I don't think she'll ever be a cackling psychopath Batman vilain, but she is definitely not mentally sound.
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Post by belle on Apr 18, 2017 13:11:12 GMT -5
Tywin also killed TONS of innocent people. But I never saw people call him crazy. lol I'm not saying that cersei is sane. Not at all. she could clearly use a therapist. But I just don't get why she's mad when she kills innocents but tywin isn't. why do we have to look for mental illness in her? just let her be an evil queen bitch lol
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Post by TheArchmaester on Apr 18, 2017 13:14:46 GMT -5
I think she might be tethering on the brink. She's not crazy, crazy at the moment, but she' has some serious fucking problems, you don't blow up a Sept (holly place with innocent people inside) and not be a little unhinged. But s I said in my previous comment, i think her madness will be more nuanced. exactly. No matter what, a sane person does not blow up a church full of hundreds of innocents in the middle of her own. Period. So yes, I don't think she'll ever be a cackling psychopath Batman vilain, but she is definitely not mentally sound. Like you said above, she is an incredibly contradictory character. Blowing up the Sept is a massive act of terrorism but her other option was to be executed. I think we all know what most people would choose. I don't actually think Cersei enjoys pointless death. She was horrified at Joffrey's baby genocide in season 2 (unlike her book version). But in her view, the people inside that Sept were not innocents. The Sept was full of the people who scorned her: the Tyrells, Sparrows and the nobility that openly mocked her in "No One". She is still in a terribly vindictive mindset, but if she were mad she couldn't make long term plans or try to reason with folks like she does all season. The problem of turning her into a mad character out of nowhere is that it reduces her to a victim. Crazy folks can't help being crazy. Non-mad Cersei retains all her terrible flaws (and virtues) to herself.
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Post by belle on Apr 18, 2017 13:20:17 GMT -5
exactly. No matter what, a sane person does not blow up a church full of hundreds of innocents in the middle of her own. Period. So yes, I don't think she'll ever be a cackling psychopath Batman vilain, but she is definitely not mentally sound. Like you said above, she is an incredibly contradictory character. Blowing up the Sept is a massive act of terrorism but her other option was to be executed. I think we all know what most people would choose. I don't actually think Cersei enjoys pointless death. She was horrified at Joffrey's baby genocide in season 2 (unlike her book version). But in her view, the people inside that Sept were not innocents. The Sept was full of the people who scorned her: the Tyrells, Sparrows and the nobility that openly mocked her in "No One". She is still in a terribly vindictive mindset, but if she were mad she couldn't make long term plans or try to reason with folks like she does all season. The problem of turning her into a mad character out of nowhere is that it reduces her to a victim. Crazy folks can't help being crazy. Non-mad Cersei retains all her terrible flaws (and virtues) to herself. Your comment reminds me of why I had a couple of issues with her "feels good" monologue to unella. It simplified her character imo and painted her as some sort of hedonist. When she really isn't imo. Both the books and show have shown that cersei's motivations are much more than just hedonism. It's obvious that scene was just to secure Lena an Emmy nom and I did enjoy it. But I think it could have been better written
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 13:24:21 GMT -5
I think it doesn't have to be an "either or" thing. I agree that Cersei is mostly sane. She knows what she is doing. But being sane and having some form of mental illness (e.g. a narcissistic personality disorder) does not have to be mutually exclusive. Even though she knows what she is doing, I'd hesitate to call someone like Cersei mentally healthy.
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Post by belle on Apr 18, 2017 13:26:21 GMT -5
I think it doesn't have to be an "either or" thing. I agree that Cersei is mostly sane. She knows what she is doing. But being sane and having some form of mental illness (e.g. a narcissistic personality disorder) does not have to be mutually exclusive. Even though she knows what she is doing, I'd hesitate to call someone like Cersei mentally healthy. I agree with this. I just don't agree with the fan perception that she's going to parallel aerys 100%
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Post by moiaf on Apr 18, 2017 13:29:07 GMT -5
I think it doesn't have to be an "either or" thing. I agree that Cersei is mostly sane. She knows what she is doing. But being sane and having some form of mental illness (e.g. a narcissistic personality disorder) does not have to be mutually exclusive. Even though she knows what she is doing, I'd hesitate to call someone like Cersei mentally healthy. I agree with this. I just don't agree with the fan perception that she's going to parallel aerys 100%I agree with you but I think that history will think of her as female Aerys. History is written by the victor and I don't think she'll be the victor. So, while her motivations are much more nuance than Aerys could have been, people will just write her off as mad.
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 18, 2017 13:31:33 GMT -5
The Cersei of the books clearly is dealing with a heavy dose of paranoia which was brought on by a number of legitimate reasons but which is clearly influencing many of her decisions and clouding her judgement.
Whether or not you want to classify paranoia as a mental illness or a form of madness is up to you but it's a trait that's common to other people in power (like Aerys) who were thought to be "mad" so I think that's probably why a lot of those "Mad Queen" statements are made.
Show Cersei, I would classify as less paranoid and more cold and calculating and a certain amount of emotional detachment (much like Tywin was) so I think that's why you won't see as many people go to the "Mad Queen" moniker as they do in the books.
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Post by belle on Apr 18, 2017 13:33:06 GMT -5
I agree with this. I just don't agree with the fan perception that she's going to parallel aerys 100%I agree with you but I think that history will think of her as female Aerys. History is written by the victor and I don't think she'll be the victor. So, while her motivations are much more nuance than Aerys could have been, people will just write her off as mad. That's a fair point. But this isn't me talking about character perception of cersei but show watcher perception
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Post by TheMadQueen on Apr 18, 2017 13:33:11 GMT -5
I loved the It Felt Good monologue. It showed that she is cruel and mean and doesn't give a fuck. She would pinch Tyrions dick and wish for his death when he was an infant. She had her guards rip a servants eye out when she was nine. She threatened to have Maggy's eyes stabbed out when she was what, 14? She's been a rotten person since birth.
This isn't a woman who is the victim of circumstance. This is a woman who knows exactly what she is doing and does it because she wants to and because she can. She justifies it and makes excuses and says she does it for her family, but at the end of the day, she knows and we know that she enjoys it.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Apr 18, 2017 13:35:29 GMT -5
Like you said above, she is an incredibly contradictory character. Blowing up the Sept is a massive act of terrorism but her other option was to be executed. I think we all know what most people would choose. I don't actually think Cersei enjoys pointless death. She was horrified at Joffrey's baby genocide in season 2 (unlike her book version). But in her view, the people inside that Sept were not innocents. The Sept was full of the people who scorned her: the Tyrells, Sparrows and the nobility that openly mocked her in "No One". She is still in a terribly vindictive mindset, but if she were mad she couldn't make long term plans or try to reason with folks like she does all season. The problem of turning her into a mad character out of nowhere is that it reduces her to a victim. Crazy folks can't help being crazy. Non-mad Cersei retains all her terrible flaws (and virtues) to herself. Your comment reminds me of why I had a couple of issues with her "feels good" monologue to unella. It simplified her character imo and painted her as some sort of hedonist. When she really isn't imo. Both the books and show have shown that cersei's motivations are much more than just hedonism. It's obvious that scene was just to secure Lena an Emmy nom and I did enjoy it. But I think it could have been better written That scene was tricky. I think Lena just about sold it with her performance but the overall Gothic torture porn feel was a tad much. Hedonism is not really much of a thing for show Cersei.
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Post by moiaf on Apr 18, 2017 13:39:47 GMT -5
I agree with you but I think that history will think of her as female Aerys. History is written by the victor and I don't think she'll be the victor. So, while her motivations are much more nuance than Aerys could have been, people will just write her off as mad. That's a fair point. But this isn't me talking about character perception of cersei but show watcher perception I think with most fans they have a need to categorize characters and place them into certain tropes. I mean, that's how the majority of our storytelling works. And GRRM like to have his characters toe different lines of different tropes and so they don't always fit into one category. But I also think it's a societal issue that most people don't truly understand mental health. You can be sadistic, cruel, etc and not actually be crazy. You can be well aware of what you are doing but not give a fuck that you are doing it. I loved the It Felt Good monologue. It showed that she is cruel and mean and doesn't give a fuck. She would pinch Tyrions dick and wish for his death when he was an infant. She had her guards rip a servants eye out when she was nine. She threatened to have Maggy's eyes stabbed out when she was what, 14? She's been a rotten person since birth. This isn't a woman who is the victim of circumstance. This is a woman who knows exactly what she is doing and does it because she wants to and because she can. She justifies it and makes excuses and says she does it for her family, but at the end of the day, she knows and we know that she enjoys it. Yes! She is her father's daughter, threw and threw.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Apr 18, 2017 13:42:17 GMT -5
The Cersei of the books clearly is dealing with a heavy dose of paranoia which was brought on by a number of legitimate reasons but which is clearly influencing many of her decisions and clouding her judgement. Whether or not you want to classify paranoia as a mental illness or a form of madness is up to you but it's a trait that's common to other people in power (like Aerys) who were thought to be "mad" so I think that's probably why a lot of those "Mad Queen" statements are made. Show Cersei, I would classify as less paranoid and more cold and calculating and a certain amount of emotional detachment (much like Tywin was) so I think that's why you won't see as many people go to the "Mad Queen" moniker as they do in the books. That's more or less how I see it. There's definitely a lot more instability in book Cersei.
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