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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 22, 2017 8:55:28 GMT -5
Let me try to be a little clearer. Suicide missions make sense when the other options are worse. While they acknowledged the probably hopelessness of the mission -- which is good -- they never really tried to explain why the other options were worse. And to be clear, I do not blame the writers of the episode -- they wrote what they were told to write. The showrunners determine the outline of the plot -- the showrunners are the ones I have a gripe with.
Just who do you think the showrunners are? They're the same guys outlining the plot and writing the episode. Not always. D&D write some of the episodes but not all. D&D are the showrunners for the entire show -- they plot out the season and give direction to the writers regarding how the plot needs to develop. Sometimes, there is no need to communicate with writers because they are the writers. But in many cases, they are not the writers. Of the six episodes aired this season, D&D wrote 4 -- the other 2 were written by other people. So they write most of the episodes -- but not all. But I was trying to make a more fundamental point. Even where D&D are the writers, which they were for this past episode, my issue is not with the specific writing for the episode. The writing was decent given where the plot needed to go. My issue is with the plotting process -- which was done by D&D independent of writing particular episodes and applies equally to episodes they write as episodes they did not write. So I am trying to be more specific about the roles. As writers -- writing dialogue and setting out the specifics of action scenes, etc. I don't really have a complaint. My complaint is with the logic of having Jon decide that going beyond the wall on a wight hunt made any sense at all. That issue was decided prior to any episodes being written. So the "writing" is not the problem -- rather the "plotting" is the problem, which on a television series like this one is the responsibility of the showrunners and not the writers and done somewhat separately from the writers and dictates what the writers must write before even starting to write (which I understand in most cases are the same people -- D&D -- but not always and not my point in any event).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 9:27:31 GMT -5
I did voice criticism as to why I thought that last week's episode didn't set this one up well, but I think the fact that they need to convince Cersei and by extension the south to stand a chance was still heavily implied. Do I wish they had spent more time with it last week? Sure. But saying that the entire explanation doesn't make sense is a bit of an exaggeration if you ask me. It was definitely not enough to ruin 706 for me. Because the explanation still works, albeit being a bit underdeveloped in the execution. But 706 retroactively elevated 705 for me with all the very strong themes I mentioned. I'm sure the same will happen with 707 when we see the impact the plan will have on the story, Cersei and by extension the south. Also, I'm confused at you talking about the writers and the showrunners as if they were separate people. Benioff and Weiss are both the writers of the episode and the showrunners at the same time. Or did you mean Dave Hill for 705? Because then I'd argue the opposite of you. I think D&D's plan made a lot of sense (as explained in the behind the episode), but Hill's writing was weak. His scene needed to be more elaborate. I am skeptical that they could have made it plausible that getting the South on their side was so critical at this point -- once the WW are over the Wall, the South will learn the truth pretty soon thereafter. So the problem in my view is not that they did not spend enough time on the issue -- spending more time likely would have just exposed the weakness in the theory that the risk of the mission was justified by the overwhelming need to convince the South. So moving quickly over the issue might have been the best option from a writing point of view. I think you might be missing a few details here, though. You said that "once the WW are over the Wall, the South will learn the truth pretty soon thereafter" and therefore the risk of the mission cannot be justified by the overwhelming need to convince the South. I think that's not true for two reasons: Reason #1: You assume that the WW will breach the Wall, but our characters don't know whether that will happen or not. In fact, I bet that Jon is hoping it won't come to that and that the threat can be stopped before it happens. Getting the help from southern Houses would be crucial here. The WW breaching the Wall is the absolute worst case scenario and to prevent that, they need all the help they can get. And there is only one way to do that: convince as many people as possible of the threat beyond the Wall. The show heavily implies that in the council scene in 705. Tyrion says that they should bring the dead to Cersei and Dany's response to that is: "I thought that's what we are trying to avoid." Because yes, what they are trying to avoid is having the dead south of the Wall to begin with. Another clue that Jon's plan was about protecting the Wall was given in 706 when the characters actually recite the NW's vows ("the shield that guards the realms of men"). So no, they couldn't wait for the WW to walk through the Wall in order to convince the South, because that's exactly what they are trying to prevent with this mission. Reason #2: Even IF the worst case scenario happens - and remember, our characters are hoping that it won't come to that at all - the South needs time to prepare for battle (e.g. forging suitable weapons to defeat the WW). As of now, the South would be basically fucked if the WW breached the Wall and attacked them. In your scenario, there would be not enough time to prepare for battle, because the South would only start to believe when it's actually too late. That's why it is crucial to inform the southern Houses now in order to prevent the fall of the Wall (as explained in reason #1) AND to give them time to prepare for batte in case the Wall is breached (as explained in reason #2). As of now, they don't take the threat seriously at all. Cersei doesn't and we saw how the maesters reacted in Oldtown. Of course it's the beauty of this story that by trying to protect the Wall (and by extension the 7 Kingdoms), our heroes probably gave the NK the one thing he needed to breach it... So in conclusion, I still maintain my position that the plan makes perfect sense (even though it is a suicide mission born out of human desperation). They just needed to exlain it better in 705, even though I think they said and/or implied everything they needed to for it to make sense. But a stronger, more elaborate council scene could have prevented some of the negative reactions from critics and fans.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 22, 2017 9:50:18 GMT -5
Some really good arguments in this episode's favour in this thread, though i do understand Unmasked Lurker's perspective, and largely agree with it. The thematic elements come through really well, and the fact that the suicidal aspect of the mission is enveloped into the plot is great. I loved all that stuff. I still think they did a terrible job of leading to that point though. There needed to be dramatic stakes to having the mission that felt desperate and neessary, and yes even somewhat stupid. Stupid is fine if it's organic to the story, but this wasn't. Instead it was a half-baked idea thrown out on the fly by Tyrion and accepted by everyone when Daenerys was actually in a position of strength. If they'd established that this was more to convince Dany herself, and the rest of the realm in general, more than Cersei then I would have felt more cognisant of their motivation. But this is largely plot stuff, and there were still plenty of great character moments. I just didn't feel they blended as well with the plot and the action as other big set piece episodes, which to be fair is a high bar to reach. I could nit pick some of the convenient moments of action, but that's never a huge bugbear of mine, I can get over that. Look forward to rewatching, since i don't usually come to a firm position on an episode, and season, until some time has passed. probably won't have time until I do my whole season rewatch though, unfortunately. This post expands on my points quite well -- thank you for expressing some of what I was trying to get across. I like your idea that maybe they could have made the need broader than just convincing Cersei. Perhaps they could have made the need really urgent with no other plausible alternative. Not sure -- but having not really tried and relying essentially only on the need to convince Cersei was weak and ultimately distracting to me. One other point I want to make regarding other people's complaints about the episode (not mine and not yours but many others). A post above made the point that it would be boring to show people traveling. The issue with travel times is not so much that people wanted to be shown the people traveling (although some might have that issue). The biggest issue I saw was simply that it would be completely impossible from the time Gendry ran off to when Dany arrived with the dragons for Gendry to run to the castle, send the ravens to Dragonstone and have Dany fly beyond the wall to arrive when Dany arrived. The distances simply are too great for those events to happen in less than a day. While I agree on the technical complaint -- I actually don't care about issues like that. So Gendry is a really fast runner and the ravens are really fast flyers -- and maybe the distances on the show are shorter than the books. I don't really care. But to be fair, the issue is not about failing to show the traveling -- this issue is about the impossibility of traveling so far is so little time (like Euron rebuilding the IB fleet so quickly -- again, technically impossible given the information the show has given us -- but I don't care about issues like that -- I just go with it).
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 22, 2017 10:00:21 GMT -5
I am skeptical that they could have made it plausible that getting the South on their side was so critical at this point -- once the WW are over the Wall, the South will learn the truth pretty soon thereafter. So the problem in my view is not that they did not spend enough time on the issue -- spending more time likely would have just exposed the weakness in the theory that the risk of the mission was justified by the overwhelming need to convince the South. So moving quickly over the issue might have been the best option from a writing point of view. I think you might be missing a few details here, though. You said that "once the WW are over the Wall, the South will learn the truth pretty soon thereafter" and therefore the risk of the mission cannot be justified by the overwhelming need to convince the South. I think that's not true for two reasons: Reason #1: You assume that the WW will breach the Wall, but our characters don't know whether that will happen or not. In fact, I bet that Jon is hoping it won't come to that and that the threat can be stopped before it happens. Getting the help from Southern houses would be crucial here. The WW breaching the Wall is the absolute worst case scenario and to prevent that, they need all the help they can get. And there is only one way to do that: convince as many people as possible of the threat beyond the Wall. The show heavily implies that in the council scene in 705. Tyrion says that they should bring the dead to Cersei and Dany's response to that is: "I thought that's what we are trying to avoid." Because yes, what they are trying to avoid is having the dead south of the Wall to begin with. Another clue that Jon's plan was about to protect the Wall was given in 706 when the characters actually recite the NW's vows ("the shield that guards the realms of men"). So they couldn't wait for the WW to walk through the Wall in order to convince the South, because that's exactly what they are trying to prevent with this mission. Reason #2: Even IF the worst case scenario happens - and remember, our characters are hoping that it won't come to that at all - the South needs time to prepare for battle (e.g. forging suitable weapons to defeat the WW). As of now, the South would be basically fucked if the WW breached the Wall and attacked them. In your scenario, there would be not enough time to prepare for battle, because the South would only start to believe when it's actually too late. That's why it is crucial to inform the Southern Houses now in order to prevent the fall of the Wall (as explained in reason #1) AND to give them time to prepare for batte in case the Wall is breached (as explained in reason #2). As of now, they don't take the threat seriously at all. Cersei doesn't and we saw how the maesters reacted in Oldtown. Of course it's the beauty of this story that by trying to protect the Wall (and by extension the 7 Kingdoms), that our heroes probably gave the NK the one thing he needed to breach it... So in conclusion, I still maintain my position that the plan makes perfect sense (even though it is a suicide mission born out of human desperation). They just needed to exlain it better in 705, even though I think they said and/or implied everything they needed to for it to make sense. But a stronger, more elaborate council scene could have prevented some of the negative reactions from critics and fans. You make some very good points. Maybe if I had these in my head while watching I could have enjoyed the episode more. BUT, I am not 100% convinced. I have a few questions which to some extent affect my thoughts on the issue (although admittedly, if they had just tried a little harder to make the need for the wight hunt more convincing I probably would have let it go even if not entirely perfect as an explanation -- but they needed to try to make the expected benefit outweigh the likely suicidal nature of the mission and they did not really try very hard to do that -- they just acknowledged it was likely suicidal but never really explained why the potential benefit was worth that risk). 1. If the WW never breach the Wall, then how are they are threat to Westeros? How is getting the Southern armies on board going to make it more likely that the WW cannot breach the Wall? 2. Aren't the Southern armies preparing for war with Dany? So are they really "unprepared"? Sure, maybe they don't have dragonglass swords -- but those can be forged by others and then supplied to the Southern armies once they see the WW have crossed the Wall, can't they? So what additional preparation is needed? 3. Isn't risking Jon's life making support from the North more risky? The North is the first line of defense, so is keeping Jon alive to rally the Northern troops at least as important as convincing Cersei?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 10:23:34 GMT -5
I think you might be missing a few details here, though. You said that "once the WW are over the Wall, the South will learn the truth pretty soon thereafter" and therefore the risk of the mission cannot be justified by the overwhelming need to convince the South. I think that's not true for two reasons: Reason #1: You assume that the WW will breach the Wall, but our characters don't know whether that will happen or not. In fact, I bet that Jon is hoping it won't come to that and that the threat can be stopped before it happens. Getting the help from Southern houses would be crucial here. The WW breaching the Wall is the absolute worst case scenario and to prevent that, they need all the help they can get. And there is only one way to do that: convince as many people as possible of the threat beyond the Wall. The show heavily implies that in the council scene in 705. Tyrion says that they should bring the dead to Cersei and Dany's response to that is: "I thought that's what we are trying to avoid." Because yes, what they are trying to avoid is having the dead south of the Wall to begin with. Another clue that Jon's plan was about to protect the Wall was given in 706 when the characters actually recite the NW's vows ("the shield that guards the realms of men"). So they couldn't wait for the WW to walk through the Wall in order to convince the South, because that's exactly what they are trying to prevent with this mission. Reason #2: Even IF the worst case scenario happens - and remember, our characters are hoping that it won't come to that at all - the South needs time to prepare for battle (e.g. forging suitable weapons to defeat the WW). As of now, the South would be basically fucked if the WW breached the Wall and attacked them. In your scenario, there would be not enough time to prepare for battle, because the South would only start to believe when it's actually too late. That's why it is crucial to inform the Southern Houses now in order to prevent the fall of the Wall (as explained in reason #1) AND to give them time to prepare for batte in case the Wall is breached (as explained in reason #2). As of now, they don't take the threat seriously at all. Cersei doesn't and we saw how the maesters reacted in Oldtown. Of course it's the beauty of this story that by trying to protect the Wall (and by extension the 7 Kingdoms), that our heroes probably gave the NK the one thing he needed to breach it... So in conclusion, I still maintain my position that the plan makes perfect sense (even though it is a suicide mission born out of human desperation). They just needed to exlain it better in 705, even though I think they said and/or implied everything they needed to for it to make sense. But a stronger, more elaborate council scene could have prevented some of the negative reactions from critics and fans. You make some very good points. Maybe if I had these in my head while watching I could have enjoyed the episode more. BUT, I am not 100% convinced. I have a few questions which to some extent affect my thoughts on the issue (although admittedly, if they had just tried a little harder to make the need for the wight hunt more convincing I probably would have let it go even if not entirely perfect as an explanation -- but they needed to try to make the expected benefit outweigh the likely suicidal nature of the mission and they did not really try very hard to do that -- they just acknowledged it was likely suicidal but never really explained why the potential benefit was worth that risk). 1. If the WW never breach the Wall, then how are they are threat to Westeros? How is getting the Southern armies on board going to make it more likely that the WW cannot breach the Wall? 2. Aren't the Southern armies preparing for war with Dany? So are they really "unprepared"? Sure, maybe they don't have dragonglass swords -- but those can be forged by others and then supplied to the Southern armies once they see the WW have crossed the Wall, can't they? So what additional preparation is needed? 3. Isn't risking Jon's life making support from the North more risky? The North is the first line of defense, so is keeping Jon alive to rally the Northern troops at least as important as convincing Cersei? Haha ok, I'll try to find answers to your questions. 1. Jon and the others don't understand the magic of the Wall (or if there is any magic to begin with). All they know is: the Night's Watch barely had enough men to keep the wildings at bay in the first four seasons. So extra soldiers are definitely needed to man the Wall and prepare for the WW's attack on it. I think Jon assumes that if they don't do anything at all, then the WW will DEFINITELY breach the Wall. The goal is to keep that massive Wall intact and to actually use the advantages it gives them in battle. Remember how in 409 the men of the Night's Watch were able to defend the Wall for a couple of hours against a huge ass army even though they were completely outnumbered? So I can only imagine how that battle would have gone if the NW had had more men. That's the idea behind this. But of course that plan is for naught now, because they gave them a dragon. 2. I don't think that would work really well, though, because they would have to transport those weapons en masse and I think once the WW breach the Wall it will be complete and utter chaos. Transportation (not only weapons, but also food and other supplies) will be a very difficult and dangerous endeavour. Especially considering the sheer quantity that would be needed. And remember, this is only the worst case scenario. They idea is that they need the men to defend the Wall, because that will give them an advantage in battle. It would be much more difficult to defeat the WW in open battle without the Wall. 3. I think the show addressed that. It's a dilemma for sure. But Jon is one of the very few people who know the WW and have the experience. Besides, I think it's very much in-character for Jon to do the noble and heroic but also extremely dumb thing. It's a theme throughout his story. Remember 609 and his reaction to Rickon's death. But I do agree with you: they needed to do a better job in explaining all of this.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 22, 2017 10:33:47 GMT -5
Haha ok, I'll try to find answers to your questions. . . . But I do agree with you: they needed to do a better job in explaining all of this. Well done.
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Post by day dreamer on Aug 22, 2017 12:50:36 GMT -5
I was just thinking, if Viserion is going to be the Beautiful Death poster, what quote do they use with it? No one really acknowledged him verbally aside from the "Dragons are my children" line, and I'm not sure if that fits?
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Post by TheMadQueen on Aug 22, 2017 12:58:08 GMT -5
I was just thinking, if Viserion is going to be the Beautiful Death poster, what quote do they use with it? No one really acknowledged him verbally aside from the "Dragons are my children" line, and I'm not sure if that fits? maybe Jon just saying "I'm so sorry"
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 13:57:58 GMT -5
I'm not what you would call a "typical Targaryen fan", but the way the Targaryen score hits you the second that dragonfire starts to rain down on those wights while Jon takes cover in slow motion is DIVINE . I still get massive chills. The score is awe-inspiring and those are always the moments when I really start to understand the fascination Targaryen-fans have with the dragons and Dany.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 14:07:14 GMT -5
I'm not what you would call a "typical Targaryen fan", but the way the Targaryen score hits you the second that dragonfire starts to rain down on those wights while Jon takes cover in slow motion is DIVINE . I still get massive chills. The score is awe-inspiring and those are always the moments when I really start to understand the fascination Targaryen-fans have with the dragons and Dany. I'm so disappointed we have to wait until the end of September for the soundtrack to be released. Djawadi has done some really great stuff this season, especially the Jon/Dany theme which was pretty prominent this episode.
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Post by Envie on Aug 22, 2017 14:21:42 GMT -5
The score is awe-inspiring and those are always the moments when I really start to understand the fascination Targaryen-fans have with the dragons and Dany. With the Divine help of Ramin Djawadi, we'll make a Targaryen dragon worshipper out of you yet!
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Post by day dreamer on Aug 22, 2017 14:23:34 GMT -5
I'm not what you would call a "typical Targaryen fan", but the way the Targaryen score hits you the second that dragonfire starts to rain down on those wights while Jon takes cover in slow motion is DIVINE . I still get massive chills. The score is awe-inspiring and those are always the moments when I really start to understand the fascination Targaryen-fans have with the dragons and Dany. I'm not a super fan either but the Targ theme has always been one of my favorites. Especially in that moment.
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Post by Envie on Aug 22, 2017 14:26:33 GMT -5
Also, since we're on the topic of the dragons. I've done my weekly round of 'reaction' video watching on youtube and I'll say this, the death of Viserion really really hit the hearts of fans worldwide. I wouldn't say it was quite as tragic and sad as Hodor's death (which really broke most everyone's hearts) but it definitely tore people up. That's a really big accomplishment for the show's FX creators. They should be very proud of themselves. Over the years we've watched the dragons grow from tiny babies to full grown weapons of mass destruction and they've become as 'real' as possible. It's a pretty big deal when people cry out in anguish and cry for a creature that's done entirely with special effects as it's killed and sinks lifelessly into a frozen lake. Well done HBO.
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Post by day dreamer on Aug 22, 2017 14:33:25 GMT -5
Also, since we're on the topic of the dragons. I've done my weekly round of 'reaction' video watching on youtube and I'll say this, the death of Viserion really really hit the hearts of fans worldwide. I wouldn't say it was quite as tragic and sad as Hodor's death (which really broke most everyone's hearts) but it definitely tore people up. That's a really big accomplishment for the show's FX creators. They should be very proud of themselves. Over the years we've watched the dragons grow from tiny babies to full grown weapons of mass destruction and they've become as 'real' as possible. It's a pretty big deal when people cry out in anguish and cry for a creature that's done entirely with special effects as it's killed and sinks lifelessly into a frozen lake. Well done HBO. I don't watch reaction videos because I think they're pretty exaggerated but I still think the show made a huge mistake in the aftermath of Viserion's death by making it all about Jon, and outside of this board I'm seeing that complaint a lot. (I don't read w.org, no idea what they're doing there. ) I remember when we first saw that leak, I had mentioned that I didn't think people would be really sad, that they would be more shocked and then hyped about the Ice Dragon, so when I saw the gif of it first, I was surprised at how sad I was. I thought they had completely proven me wrong. Then all of that almost immediately went away because Dany barely gave him a second thought. It was all about Jon. I mean I get it, I care more about Jon too but that's shocking to me her child took 2nd place to her love interest. I think had they maybe had a scene of her and Jorah talking about Viserion as they waited on top of the wall, it maybe would've made it a bit better, because then you would've actually heard her talk about it more before Jon came back to steal his thunder.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 14:49:37 GMT -5
I'm not what you would call a "typical Targaryen fan", but the way the Targaryen score hits you the second that dragonfire starts to rain down on those wights while Jon takes cover in slow motion is DIVINE . I still get massive chills. The score is awe-inspiring and those are always the moments when I really start to understand the fascination Targaryen-fans have with the dragons and Dany. Honestly that scene is one of the best in the series IMO. The soundtrack, the visuals, Jon and Dany looking at each other... I also agree with day dreamer that we should've had a scene of Jorah and Dany discussing Viserion.
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