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Post by izzue on May 15, 2019 9:09:51 GMT -5
I read these last posts last night - toooooo sleepy to get a post typed out. For what it's worth, I don't think Dany is 'mad', either, as in 'insane', not like Aerys, not like Viserys. But I do see her as 'mad' with the inability at this point to abandon her life-long drive for ultimate power, mad with self-justification, 'mad' as in over the edge. I see her as Mad Queen like Cersei was a Mad Queen, though not an insane one. The difference between those two is that underneath the 'madness', the being crazed with/by power, Jorah was right that Dany does have a kind heart, whereas by the end Cersei didn't except when it came to her children. But that kind heart is 'way out of the picture now, beyond recall. She won't be coming out to appear before those troops we saw in the preview to say she's sorry, that she was wrong. She's locked into a path now that she won't be able to get out of. Jon/Tyrion/Arya can't possible stand by her now - somebody's going to die, probably at least a few somebod ies. Starting with what I think is most likely: * Jon will live and end up North of the Wall or at the remaining wall, with Sam, Gilly, Tormund. [Maybe Ghost will even forgive him!] I think that was foreshadowed when he said goodbye to these characters back in Ep 4. * I think Dany will be killed by Arya - she could sail back to Essos. I'd prefer that ending, but I think chances of that are next to nothing. * Arya then may actually live and sail 'west of Westeros', or she may be killed by Greyworm - I have hope but am only 50/50 about her chances of surviving (Unless that white horse ... ) * I like to think Tyrion will live - in my dreams he's left to set up a more nearly just [if flat out 'just' is even possible?] rule in Westeros, I hope as an administrator sort of figurehead with a council of 'rulers' from other kingdoms (Gendry, Yara, etc.) There's a new prince in Dorne. Presumably Edmure is still in Riverrun? But Dany's been really on his case the last couple of seasons - I don't think he'd survive a showdown with her. I'd prefer he get the shit out of Dodge right away, but he won't. * Sansa is left hanging in my thoughts. One remaining episode isn't enough to get back to WF and show her being killed. And I can't say I want her killed, but I absolutely hate, hate, hate the way she treated Dany. No one could 'make' Dany turn like she did, but Sansa sure did put fuel on the fire. But I guess she'll be left as Warden of the North, or part of that council of rulers, or some such *Bran -- that's probably the one 'beef' I have with this season - where is he in the story? He will figure large in the books, I am sure, but I can't see him coming back into the picture in this last episode. D&D must have felt they couldn't handle much of Bran's arc in the limited tv format??? And I'm still hung up on the opening map showing the Isle of Faces. That, actually, would be a good place for Bran to retire, * Bronn? How is he even still in the picture? His appearance in Ep 4 seemed really inconsistent, and he's not a major character. If he kills Tyrion, I'll be really pissed. He has very little presence in the books beyond Tyrion's trial. It's going to be a tense ride, and definitely a sad, bitter one. I'm just counting on there being enough 'sweet' in the mix to make it truly bittersweet.
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Post by Envie on May 15, 2019 10:02:14 GMT -5
You had a lot of great points in your summary izzue - There are a lot of plot points still sort of hanging in mid-air like you said, with Bran, Sansa, Bronn, those still up north like Brienne, Gilly, Sam. I am guessing that's what this final episode will be about - tying up all the loose ends for the other characters left now. * I like to think Tyrion will live - in my dreams he's left to set up a more nearly just [if flat out 'just' is even possible?] rule in Westeros, I hope as an administrator sort of figurehead with a council of 'rulers' from other kingdoms (Gendry, Yara, etc.) There's a new prince in Dorne. Presumably Edmure is still in Riverrun? But Dany's been really on his case the last couple of seasons - I don't think he'd survive a showdown with her. I'd prefer he get the shit out of Dodge right away, but he won't. I'm onboard with the idea of Tyrion leading some sort of restructuring plan and I've commented in quite a few posts that I think a federation of some sort is really the best way for Westeros to move forward after all of this. They seem to be setting that up, or hinting at it with Gendry being made Lord Baratheon, and Sam the final heir to his house with a new baby on the way too... there seems to be some glimmer of hope for future life for many of the side characters if not for the main ones remaining. As for Tyrion even surviving to do this, I'm about 50/50 right now. He foreshadowed his demise pretty heavily in his 'fair trade' quote in that moving good-bye with Jaime. He knows freeing Jaime will be the last straw in his relationship with Daenerys and seems ready to accept that fate. At this point Jon is about the only person who might be able to save him and may feel obligated to do so since Sansa did tell Tyrion and while yes Tyrion technically betrayed Dany by telling Varys, he owned up to that and Jon may see how that could go both ways too. I don't know now, after my re-watch yesterday. I have a bad feeling about Jon. He was in complete trauma there at the end watching his own men brutally rape and murder the people in King's Landing and he couldn't even stop them. I don't know where they 'retreated' to but it looked like they were going to burn up too if Jon hadn't tried to get them out of there. I'm guessing they go back to the war camp they had set up by the water and wait to find out what Dany expects now. She's clearly making a very dark/ominous assembly there in the wreckage of the city in the preview. It had a dark emperor sort of feel to it. Jon is as much her enemy now as everyone else. This is very sad. I never expected Dany's character development to devolve this way. I guess I must be one of the millions of saps who truly thought she'd overcome all the foreshadowing and bad mistakes (ie. burning the Tarly's) to find a way to co-rule with Jon and pull this all around. What a shock that it just fell so quickly into darkness. Jon's been faced with very bad situations before and he always manages to keep fighting even though he hates it. Will this finally be the end for him or for Daenerys?
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Post by izzue on May 15, 2019 19:39:52 GMT -5
As for Tyrion even surviving to do this, I'm about 50/50 right now. He foreshadowed his demise pretty heavily in his 'fair trade' quote in that moving good-bye with Jaime. He knows freeing Jaime will be the last straw in his relationship with Daenerys and seems ready to accept that fate. At this point Jon is about the only person who might be able to save him and may feel obligated to do so since Sansa did tell Tyrion and while yes Tyrion technically betrayed Dany by telling Varys, he owned up to that and Jon may see how that could go both ways too. Tyrion did sound like he had every expectation of being executed for freeing Jaime. I wonder, though, how Dany would/could find out that he did ... maybe one of the soldiers remembers and will tell Dany? There's a definite denial streak in me, I know, whereby I convince myself that the characters I really want to survive will survive, but I should know better than that by now! One of the things I'm hanging my little "la la la la I don't hear anything la la la" hat on is that I read somewhere that Tyrion was Martin's favorite character. I realize that probably has less than nothing to do with the end plot, but the other thing I'm pretending to myself will make a difference is that I really don't think there's anyone else who can spearhead the reconstruction plan that will be needed. All of which probably means that Tyrion will be the first to die next episode! I don't know now, after my re-watch yesterday. I have a bad feeling about Jon. He was in complete trauma there at the end watching his own men brutally rape and murder the people in King's Landing and he couldn't even stop them. I don't know where they 'retreated' to but it looked like they were going to burn up too if Jon hadn't tried to get them out of there. I'm guessing they go back to the war camp they had set up by the water and wait to find out what Dany expects now. She's clearly making a very dark/ominous assembly there in the wreckage of the city in the preview. It had a dark emperor sort of feel to it. Jon is as much her enemy now as everyone else. This is very sad. I never expected Dany's character development to devolve this way. I guess I must be one of the millions of saps who truly thought she'd overcome all the foreshadowing and bad mistakes (ie. burning the Tarly's) to find a way to co-rule with Jon and pull this all around. What a shock that it just fell so quickly into darkness. Jon's been faced with very bad situations before and he always manages to keep fighting even though he hates it. Will this finally be the end for him or for Daenerys? One time a number of weeks ago I was on youtube and played a prediction video which said they thought Jon was going to die. I freaked out, and all of a sudden it seemed I was seeing that prediction everywhere. Really unnerved me. My gut feeling is that since he's just now finally, finally found out not only who his mother was but his real identity and that he's not a bastard, it would be too cruel to have that be so short lived. That doesn't fit into Martin's logic, though, I know, and it could just as easily be said that it would be too cruel for Dany to die, having spent all of her life striving to get where she is, finally doing away with Cersei, only to die herself. The thing that makes me the most uneasy about Jon's fate is remembering when he talked to Melisandre just before the BotB and told her that if he died, he didn't want her to bring him back. Of course, she's not here anymore, but it speaks of Jon's just being so tired of it all.
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Post by Envie on May 15, 2019 20:12:17 GMT -5
I wonder, though, how Dany would/could find out that he did ... maybe one of the soldiers remembers and will tell Dany? I'm pretty sure she's going to want to know where Jaime Lannister is at the time she's assembling her remaining forces there at the end. I'm not sure what she's victorious over with only a handful of Dothraki and what looks like a thousand or so unsullied left - there are no people there at all. But I think if she's staying in fear-mode, she's going to want to execute her remaining 'enemies' being Jaime (who is already dead), and possibly Tyrion for freeing him. Maybe if there's anyone left alive from the Lannister forces or the Red Keep but honestly, who is really left to answer for 'crimes' against her now? Sansa up at Winterfell? Jon? The thing that makes me the most uneasy about Jon's fate is remembering when he talked to Melisandre just before the BotB and told her that if he died, he didn't want her to bring him back. Of course, she's not here anymore, but it speaks of Jon's just being so tired of it all. That's always been in the back of my mind with Jon ever since he was resurrected. It seems like we learned through Beric that 'a part of you' goes away and doesn't come back when you're brought back and he went through it 6 times, so he must feel pretty hollow inside towards the end there - ready to just be done with it. His sacrifice to save Arya was worth it and a good way for him to go. Jon may feel the same way at this point, just really ready for it to be over and as you said, tired of it all. He's said repeatedly he doesn't want to rule, which is a real sad twist of fate for both he and Daenerys. If only she could believe he doesn't want to rule or that Westeros would accept her ... and now, of course, they never will. If Jon doesn't die, I just can't see him being this morose king of Westeros, even without a King's Landing or Iron Throne. Jon's a great warrior, but just like Ned, leads with his heart and honor and where Daenerys went too far into ruthless, Jon doesn't go far enough. I always thought maybe him coming back from the dead would make him a lot harder and less 'noble' so he could find the stomach to actually be more ruthless and rule. It seems the scales have swung between Jon and Dany and never found any sort of balance for either of them.
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Post by TheArchmaester on May 17, 2019 15:47:36 GMT -5
K - I'm really afraid of going on the 8.06 Promo thread for fear of inadvertent spoilers, but I'm hoping to catch some Unsullied speculation here. I've played the promo over and over - that shot of the red keep with a light in one window ... Dany taking over there? Last scene looks like she comes out to survey her armies/ followers at the top of the stairs of the RK where Margaery and Joff once stood to wave to the crowd. Arya's tracking pretty close behind the Dothraki/ Unsullied forces with 'that look' on her face, a new person on her list? Davos and Jon walking through the ruins - so Jon still has his 'for-all-practical-purposes' "Hand". Tyrion walking through the ruins as well, but alone, and Dany alone at last scene. Goes without saying that she's lost her Hand ... what individual person does she have beside her now other than GW? The promo only seems to show the very first scene(s) of the episode so we're completely in the dark. We know the dragonpit is coming back since they shot in Itálica. Makes sense as it's probably the only part of KL left standing. A gathering of the lords of Westeros seems imminent, but to what purpose? The fallout from the KL battle should be enough to fill 40-50 minutes of drama at least. I hope they take their time with it.
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