moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on Sept 9, 2017 17:11:07 GMT -5
I didn't know this but according to that post Lils quoted, Arwen and Aragorn were related, though everything I can find info on says they were cousins and quite a bit removed so their family connection was a lot less than Jon and Daenerys. I have always gotten a bit of a "Strider" / Aragorn vibe from Jon Snow as well. Jon Snow, like Aragorn, did not know his true heritage growing up as his Mother requested he be renamed and it kept secret when he was fostered at Rivendell after his Father was killed. It's also interesting to note that Aragorn rarely went by his proper "king" name until much later and went by "Estel" or "Strider" so like many nobles in medieval fantasy (and even real life monarchs) it's not uncommon to have a familiar name and a formal one. If Jon becomes King of Westeros, he would be King Aegon VI Targaryen, but I doubt he'll ever be called that by friends and family. He'll just be "Jon" to everyone around him. At least it's still incest to just point out when people get uppity. I was thinking about that as well. The more you look at Aragorn/Jon, you can see the major parallels between them. The secret identity, the special sword, the somewhat forbidden love, and the fellowship to deal with an ancient power (I know it's the show, but I just found that cute). I suspect that GRRM is using Jon as an Aragorn extension, exploring more of what he wanted to see happen with Aragorn's reign. (How did he rule wisely, etc.) I like though how active and how much personality Dany has compared to Arwen, but she has that mystical element that Arwen did. So, GRRM has compared Dany to Aragorn as well on a couple of occasions. so he might be exploring the the king and queen from the same angle, learning to lead, dealing with the pitfalls of ruling, etc. I don't think Dany shares much with Arwin who was sort of blah to be honest. The only thing they really have in common is that they represent the elf race of their respective series. ETA: If we are going to compare Dany to any of the females from LOTR I would say she has more in common with someone like Galadriel. Whom I've compared her to as well, in the past.
|
|
Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on Sept 9, 2017 17:46:32 GMT -5
Found this one for you Lils! This youtube creator definitely sees the clues that Daenerys will be pregnant. A nicely done tribute of them coming together:
|
|
Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on Sept 9, 2017 17:55:56 GMT -5
At least it's still incest to just point out when people get uppity. I was thinking about that as well. The more you look at Aragorn/Jon, you can see the major parallels between them. The secret identity, the special sword, the somewhat forbidden love, and the fellowship to deal with an ancient power (I know it's the show, but I just found that cute). I suspect that GRRM is using Jon as an Aragorn extension, exploring more of what he wanted to see happen with Aragorn's reign. (How did he rule wisely, etc.) I like though how active and how much personality Dany has compared to Arwen, but she has that mystical element that Arwen did. So, GRRM has compared Dany to Aragorn as well on a couple of occasions. so he might be exploring the the king and queen from the same angle, learning to lead, dealing with the pitfalls of ruling, etc. I don't think Dany shares much with Arwin who was sort of blah to be honest. The only thing they really have in common is that they represent the elf race of their respective series. ETA: If we are going to compare Dany to any of the females from LOTR I would say she has more in common with someone like Galadriel. Whom I've compared her to as well, in the past. I definitely think this is probably the case. GRRM created a male and female version of Aragorn, the hidden king and queen who spend their lives fighting for justice from far away and then come home to take back their rightful place leading the realms of men. Both Jon and Daenerys have such strong parallels in this theme of being 'lost' Targaryen royalty forced to conform to cultures and challenges outside of their heritage and fight their way back up to the top. It's a great theme and with his different world and different perspective on it, a beautiful story. Tolkien didn't elaborate a lot on how Aragorn grew up and became the man who would return as a king, so he created a duality of Aragorn in both Jon and Daenerys to explore the dynamics of both their lives and a longer journey.
|
|
cosmos
Viserion
@cosmos
Posts: 205
Likes: 172
inherit
163
0
Dec 15, 2019 22:22:39 GMT -5
172
cosmos
205
Sept 7, 2017 9:38:25 GMT -5
September 2017
cosmos
|
Post by cosmos on Sept 9, 2017 20:20:38 GMT -5
How has no one posted the Transatlanticism Jonerys video in this thread? It destroys me every single time. And I watch it often.
|
|
Lils
Moondancer
"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it..."
@lils
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 2,069
inherit
100
0
Feb 3, 2018 18:50:43 GMT -5
2,069
Lils
"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it..."
1,294
Oct 10, 2016 15:43:58 GMT -5
October 2016
lils
|
Post by Lils on Sept 9, 2017 21:24:41 GMT -5
Found this one for you Lils ! This youtube creator definitely sees the clues that Daenerys will be pregnant. A nicely done tribute of them coming together: You made my day!
|
|
Lils
Moondancer
"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it..."
@lils
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 2,069
inherit
100
0
Feb 3, 2018 18:50:43 GMT -5
2,069
Lils
"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it..."
1,294
Oct 10, 2016 15:43:58 GMT -5
October 2016
lils
|
Post by Lils on Sept 9, 2017 21:26:02 GMT -5
So, GRRM has compared Dany to Aragorn as well on a couple of occasions. so he might be exploring the the king and queen from the same angle, learning to lead, dealing with the pitfalls of ruling, etc. I don't think Dany shares much with Arwin who was sort of blah to be honest. The only thing they really have in common is that they represent the elf race of their respective series. ETA: If we are going to compare Dany to any of the females from LOTR I would say she has more in common with someone like Galadriel. Whom I've compared her to as well, in the past. I definitely think this is probably the case. GRRM created a male and female version of Aragorn, the hidden king and queen who spend their lives fighting for justice from far away and then come home to take back their rightful place leading the realms of men. Both Jon and Daenerys have such strong parallels in this theme of being 'lost' Targaryen royalty forced to conform to cultures and challenges outside of their heritage and fight their way back up to the top. It's a great theme and with his different world and different perspective on it, a beautiful story. Tolkien didn't elaborate a lot on how Aragorn grew up and became the man who would return as a king, so he created a duality of Aragorn in both Jon and Daenerys to explore the dynamics of both their lives and a longer journey. This really harkens back to the whole yin yang idea about Jon and Dany, two halves making up a whole. The two of them together make up a more substantial Aragorn, fully explored.
|
|
ladystoneboobs
Syrax
Outlived your faves for nearly 72 eps.
@ladystoneboobs
Posts: 2,006
Likes: 3,273
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
32
0
May 24, 2019 19:21:11 GMT -5
3,273
ladystoneboobs
Outlived your faves for nearly 72 eps.
2,006
Jun 25, 2016 17:54:15 GMT -5
June 2016
ladystoneboobs
1 Time Winner
|
Post by ladystoneboobs on Sept 10, 2017 9:36:22 GMT -5
About the Arwen & Aragorn thing, when I was reading LOTR years ago Dany & Jon popped into my head as well. Just always gave me that vibe. Funny because I believe Arwen & Aragorn are related too but not as close as Jon & Dany. It's been a while since I read LOTR so my memory could be wrong. I didn't know this but according to that post Lils quoted, Arwen and Aragorn were related, though everything I can find info on says they were cousins and quite a bit removed so their family connection was a lot less than Jon and Daenerys. I have always gotten a bit of a "Strider" / Aragorn vibe from Jon Snow as well. Jon Snow, like Aragorn, did not know his true heritage growing up as his Mother requested he be renamed and it kept secret when he was fostered at Rivendell after his Father was killed. It's also interesting to note that Aragorn rarely went by his proper "king" name until much later and went by "Estel" or "Strider" so like many nobles in medieval fantasy (and even real life monarchs) it's not uncommon to have a familiar name and a formal one. If Jon becomes King of Westeros, he would be King Aegon VI Targaryen, but I doubt he'll ever be called that by friends and family. He'll just be "Jon" to everyone around him. Aragorn used a ton of nicknames, but he did also mostly use his birth name, Aragorn, in the LotR saga. When he was crowned it was as King Elassar, a name given by Galadriel. If Jon survives saving the world I see no reason why his being king would be conditional on using the name his bio father chose. Why would Bran even share that part of the story with the public when Jon would have no desire to have a different first place? I think people get too bogged into political analysis of this at the expense of narrative sense. It's not like the past Targs absolutely had to use Valyrian first names. Egg's son and heir would have been King Duncan I if not for the love match to a commoner which made him abdicate his claim.
|
|
Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on Sept 10, 2017 11:56:04 GMT -5
I didn't know this but according to that post Lils quoted, Arwen and Aragorn were related, though everything I can find info on says they were cousins and quite a bit removed so their family connection was a lot less than Jon and Daenerys. I have always gotten a bit of a "Strider" / Aragorn vibe from Jon Snow as well. Jon Snow, like Aragorn, did not know his true heritage growing up as his Mother requested he be renamed and it kept secret when he was fostered at Rivendell after his Father was killed. It's also interesting to note that Aragorn rarely went by his proper "king" name until much later and went by "Estel" or "Strider" so like many nobles in medieval fantasy (and even real life monarchs) it's not uncommon to have a familiar name and a formal one. If Jon becomes King of Westeros, he would be King Aegon VI Targaryen, but I doubt he'll ever be called that by friends and family. He'll just be "Jon" to everyone around him. Aragorn used a ton of nicknames, but he did also mostly use his birth name, Aragorn, in the LotR saga. When he was crowned it was as King Elassar, a name given by Galadriel. If Jon survives saving the world I see no reason why his being king would be conditional on using the name his bio father chose. Why would Bran even share that part of the story with the public when Jon would have no desire to have a different first place? I think people get too bogged into political analysis of this at the expense of narrative sense. It's not like the past Targs absolutely had to use Valyrian first names. Egg's son and heir would have been King Duncan I if not for the love match to a commoner which made him abdicate his claim. I don't think anyone's arguing that here, but I have seen some comments and questioning elsewhere whether Jon would actually want to call himself Aegon or not. The only reason it would likely get shared with the public would be to confirm his legitimacy if that were to be a thing at all after the great war is over. A lot of people don't like the fact he's another Aegon (I was personally hoping for Aemon) because of the baby Aegon and then there's the question of whether the one in the books (fake one most likely) would make any difference to what Jon's birth name was or not. Some think if there's a fAegon, and the baby Aegon (Elia's baby), would Jon's real name still be Aegon too or is this just a show invention only? I'm curious on that one but really, in the end, it doesn't matter what Jon's birth name was, he'll still be Jon. His surname is what really ends up mattering most and I suspect he'll be ready to get rid of the bastard name Snow.
|
|
ladystoneboobs
Syrax
Outlived your faves for nearly 72 eps.
@ladystoneboobs
Posts: 2,006
Likes: 3,273
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
32
0
May 24, 2019 19:21:11 GMT -5
3,273
ladystoneboobs
Outlived your faves for nearly 72 eps.
2,006
Jun 25, 2016 17:54:15 GMT -5
June 2016
ladystoneboobs
1 Time Winner
|
Post by ladystoneboobs on Sept 10, 2017 13:00:16 GMT -5
Aragorn used a ton of nicknames, but he did also mostly use his birth name, Aragorn, in the LotR saga. When he was crowned it was as King Elassar, a name given by Galadriel. If Jon survives saving the world I see no reason why his being king would be conditional on using the name his bio father chose. Why would Bran even share that part of the story with the public when Jon would have no desire to have a different first place? I think people get too bogged into political analysis of this at the expense of narrative sense. It's not like the past Targs absolutely had to use Valyrian first names. Egg's son and heir would have been King Duncan I if not for the love match to a commoner which made him abdicate his claim. I don't think anyone's arguing that here, but I have seen some comments and questioning elsewhere whether Jon would actually want to call himself Aegon or not. The only reason it would likely get shared with the public would be to confirm his legitimacy if that were to be a thing at all after the great war is over. A lot of people don't like the fact he's another Aegon (I was personally hoping for Aemon) because of the baby Aegon and then there's the question of whether the one in the books (fake one most likely) would make any difference to what Jon's birth name was or not. Some think if there's a fAegon, and the baby Aegon (Elia's baby), would Jon's real name still be Aegon too or is this just a show invention only? I'm curious on that one but really, in the end, it doesn't matter what Jon's birth name was, he'll still be Jon. His surname is what really ends up mattering most and I suspect he'll be ready to get rid of the bastard name Snow. that's what the septon's diary is for. it's not like only rhaegar's lawful wife could ever say "his name is aegon".
|
|
Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on Sept 10, 2017 14:53:04 GMT -5
I don't think anyone's arguing that here, but I have seen some comments and questioning elsewhere whether Jon would actually want to call himself Aegon or not. The only reason it would likely get shared with the public would be to confirm his legitimacy if that were to be a thing at all after the great war is over. A lot of people don't like the fact he's another Aegon (I was personally hoping for Aemon) because of the baby Aegon and then there's the question of whether the one in the books (fake one most likely) would make any difference to what Jon's birth name was or not. Some think if there's a fAegon, and the baby Aegon (Elia's baby), would Jon's real name still be Aegon too or is this just a show invention only? I'm curious on that one but really, in the end, it doesn't matter what Jon's birth name was, he'll still be Jon. His surname is what really ends up mattering most and I suspect he'll be ready to get rid of the bastard name Snow. that's what the septon's diary is for. it's not like only rhaegar's lawful wife could ever say "his name is aegon". Yes, I know that. That was my point. You said, "Why would Bran even share that part of the story with the public when Jon would have no desire to have a different name in the first place?" I was agreeing, and saying the only reason it would be shared with the public was to confirm legitimacy. I didn't mention the Septon's diary because that's what I was referring to in the first place, guess I should have stated that. If not for the diary, it would be Bran's word against anyone trying to deny it and acknowledge him officially. People could just claim Bran is crazy (and let's face it, he does act very weird now as the three-eyed-raven) But anyways, way off point from the original idea that Jon won't want to go by Aegon nor does it really matter in the bigger scheme of things. Does the diary even say anything about their child? It wasn't stated in the scene where Gilly read it or when Sam told Bran. I'm still on the side of Jon wanting to keep his true identity secret anyways (at least while the great war is going on) so it doesn't cause anymore conflict between northerners and southerners than necessary to get the job done of fighting together. But then you've got the possible side effects of Daenerys getting pregnant that's foreshadowed. If she does, Jon's definitely going to want to claim his Targaryen heritage for the baby's legitimacy too. He never wanted to have sex for fear of getting a girl pregnant and creating another bastard. It's a big deal to him.
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on Sept 11, 2017 11:21:05 GMT -5
You know, I can see it go both ways. I can see Jon deciding to remain Jon Snow and I can see him adopt the name for official purposes but still be called Jon Snow. It's difficult to say, he doesn't need to take the name if he doesn't want to, embracing the fact that he's also a Targaryen doesn't mean he needs to call himself one. Although, he very well could choose to in the end.
On a different note, I have to say that I'm surprised in the surge of fans who think these two might survive the series. The majority still think one or both will die, but there has been a noticeable increase in the number of fans who think they will survive. Which I think is really interesting. Some of it has to do with the romance, I'm sure, but I also think that some of it has to do with the narrative direction the story is taking. It doesn't seem very useful to have these two die when they are the only ones who have leaned to lead and rule throughout the series. Also, we saw that their dynamic is meant to compliment each other, especially in Dany's case, Jon's influence was very positive.
I think we'll see more of Dany's influence in Jon next season.
|
|
inherit
57
0
Feb 17, 2019 21:03:02 GMT -5
1,038
Lady Sansa's Direwolf
Livin' and Dyin' in 3/4 Time
836
Jul 11, 2016 17:32:57 GMT -5
July 2016
ladysansasdirewolf
|
Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Sept 11, 2017 11:35:05 GMT -5
On a different note, I have to say that I'm surprised in the surge of fans who think these two might survive the series. The majority still think one or both will die, but there has been a noticeable increase in the number of fans who think they will survive. Which I think is really interesting. Some of it has to do with the romance, I'm sure, but I also think that some of it has to do with the narrative direction the story is taking. It doesn't seem very useful to have these two die when they are the only ones who have leaned to lead and rule throughout the series. Also, we saw that their dynamic is meant to compliment each other, especially in Dany's case, Jon's influence was very positive. I think this is because people don't want to think of all these two have been through being for nothing. I think they will be like Jaeherys the first and his wife, who were good, kind, and brought many years of peace and prosperity to Westeros. If Martin is interested in the 'ruling' aspect, that is where I think he will go - to show that after war and destruction you have to have strong people with good hearts to rebuild.
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on Sept 11, 2017 12:17:29 GMT -5
On a different note, I have to say that I'm surprised in the surge of fans who think these two might survive the series. The majority still think one or both will die, but there has been a noticeable increase in the number of fans who think they will survive. Which I think is really interesting. Some of it has to do with the romance, I'm sure, but I also think that some of it has to do with the narrative direction the story is taking. It doesn't seem very useful to have these two die when they are the only ones who have leaned to lead and rule throughout the series. Also, we saw that their dynamic is meant to compliment each other, especially in Dany's case, Jon's influence was very positive. I think this is because people don't want to think of all these two have been through being for nothing. I think they will be like Jaeherys the first and his wife, who were good, kind, and brought many years of peace and prosperity to Westeros. If Martin is interested in the 'ruling' aspect, that is where I think he will go - to show that after war and destruction you have to have strong people with good hearts to rebuild. Exactly, it all has to come to something. I mean in real life, people who have been preparing for ruling could die without ever reaching the throne but ASOIAF is still a story. And also, we have fAegon for that matter. He's fulfilling that criteria in the books. It has to come to something and I agree, we very well might see a Jaehaerys & Alysanne for the next generation.
|
|
laurya
Drogon
I drink and I burn things. AND I WANTED THOSE ELEPHANTS.
@laurya
Posts: 703
Likes: 1,290
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
16
0
Nov 17, 2019 3:29:21 GMT -5
1,290
laurya
I drink and I burn things. AND I WANTED THOSE ELEPHANTS.
703
Jun 22, 2016 6:01:46 GMT -5
June 2016
laurya
1 Time Winner
|
Post by laurya on Sept 11, 2017 13:08:27 GMT -5
You know, I can see it go both ways. I can see Jon deciding to remain Jon Snow and I can see him adopt the name for official purposes but still be called Jon Snow. It's difficult to say, he doesn't need to take the name if he doesn't want to, embracing the fact that he's also a Targaryen doesn't mean he needs to call himself one. Although, he very well could choose to in the end. I can see Jon keeping his name for the same reasons Grey Worm kept his when Dany offered him the opportunity to change it. It was a name that belittled him (the Snow part) but at the same time it was the name Ned gave him, the name he had when he became LC and most importantly the name he bore when he met Dany.
|
|
ladystoneboobs
Syrax
Outlived your faves for nearly 72 eps.
@ladystoneboobs
Posts: 2,006
Likes: 3,273
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
32
0
May 24, 2019 19:21:11 GMT -5
3,273
ladystoneboobs
Outlived your faves for nearly 72 eps.
2,006
Jun 25, 2016 17:54:15 GMT -5
June 2016
ladystoneboobs
1 Time Winner
|
Post by ladystoneboobs on Sept 11, 2017 13:47:16 GMT -5
Gang, Jon could have gotten rid of the bastard name already if he wanted to. He's a king, he could have legitimized himself as a Stark as soon as he became KitN. Especially since he has shown zero inclination to start a new offshoot royal house and has in every way but the name been acting as the head of House Stark (e.g., direwolf banners everywhere with no personal sigil/banner, having the Umber and Karstark heirs bend the knee to House Stark, and when Dany said the last KitN was Torrhen Stark, it took some back and forth and some thinking on his part to get to his not being beholden to an ancestor's submission terms just as she couldn't be judged for her father's crimes instead of just saying he wasn't a Stark and it's a new dynasty) If he really would be glad to lose the Snow name, he would have done so.
|
|