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Post by StarkL on Feb 18, 2017 10:05:40 GMT -5
Excellent catch! I wonder if we are meant to extract anything from the two scenes. Well probably it's not like D&D to do that for no reason. So it's not Dany that says this to the Masters it's Grey worm. The Dire Wolf of house Stark is Grey, but Jon is no Wolf. Jon is a Dragon and another name for Dragon is Wyrm. So Grey wyrm, could be foreshadowing part of Jon's role in the future. Grey worm is the leader of of Dany's most loyal fighting force. Jon leads Night's Watch, or did, he might still I am not 100% there. The Unsullied and the idea of the watch have a lot of similarities. Both are all male, neither is meant to have children, hold land, take wives. The Unsullied fight with the Freemen against the Slavers. The Night's watch now Fights with Free Folk to stop The Night King and his Thralls. The Night King essentially leads a slave army, the Thralls or Wights, and of course the Slavers lead a slave army. In the Books like Jon and sort of the show, Grey Worm served under Mormont, as John also served under Mormont. That's all I can think off the top of my head. That's really interesting and if we consider the leaks and Greyworm really dies, Jon will end up being the leader of Dany's armies in the War of the Dawn. I can see this foreshadowing now.
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Post by sercreighton on Feb 19, 2017 23:02:15 GMT -5
Well probably it's not like D&D to do that for no reason. So it's not Dany that says this to the Masters it's Grey worm. The Dire Wolf of house Stark is Grey, but Jon is no Wolf. Jon is a Dragon and another name for Dragon is Wyrm. So Grey wyrm, could be foreshadowing part of Jon's role in the future. Grey worm is the leader of of Dany's most loyal fighting force. Jon leads Night's Watch, or did, he might still I am not 100% there. The Unsullied and the idea of the watch have a lot of similarities. Both are all male, neither is meant to have children, hold land, take wives. The Unsullied fight with the Freemen against the Slavers. The Night's watch now Fights with Free Folk to stop The Night King and his Thralls. The Night King essentially leads a slave army, the Thralls or Wights, and of course the Slavers lead a slave army. In the Books like Jon and sort of the show, Grey Worm served under Mormont, as John also served under Mormont. That's all I can think off the top of my head. That's really interesting and if we consider the leaks and Greyworm really dies, Jon will end up being the leader of Dany's armies in the War of the Dawn. I can see this foreshadowing now. Yeah I feel like it's a nice little hint, and this case you could take it step further with Sansa, and Little Finger. You get that nice sort of juxtaposition between Jon and Dany here as well. Sometimes the small hints they leave are the best ones, personal favorite. Olyver and a Rose, and a Rose and Olly. Which leads to clue bat. Of course Jon often associated with a rose, is also heavily associated with Dorne.
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Post by moiaf on Feb 20, 2017 9:36:49 GMT -5
Excellent catch! I wonder if we are meant to extract anything from the two scenes. Well probably it's not like D&D to do that for no reason. So it's not Dany that says this to the Masters it's Grey worm. The Dire Wolf of house Stark is Grey, but Jon is no Wolf. Jon is a Dragon and another name for Dragon is Wyrm. So Grey wyrm, could be foreshadowing part of Jon's role in the future. Grey worm is the leader of of Dany's most loyal fighting force. Jon leads Night's Watch, or did, he might still I am not 100% there. The Unsullied and the idea of the watch have a lot of similarities. Both are all male, neither is meant to have children, hold land, take wives. The Unsullied fight with the Freemen against the Slavers. The Night's watch now Fights with Free Folk to stop The Night King and his Thralls. The Night King essentially leads a slave army, the Thralls or Wights, and of course the Slavers lead a slave army. In the Books like Jon and sort of the show, Grey Worm served under Mormont, as John also served under Mormont. That's all I can think off the top of my head. Nice catch, it made me think of this theory I once read about Jon becoming the Lord Commander of Dany's Queensguard. The blogger who wrote it deleted his blog but her alluded to it here.
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Post by sercreighton on Feb 20, 2017 12:45:40 GMT -5
Well probably it's not like D&D to do that for no reason. So it's not Dany that says this to the Masters it's Grey worm. The Dire Wolf of house Stark is Grey, but Jon is no Wolf. Jon is a Dragon and another name for Dragon is Wyrm. So Grey wyrm, could be foreshadowing part of Jon's role in the future. Grey worm is the leader of of Dany's most loyal fighting force. Jon leads Night's Watch, or did, he might still I am not 100% there. The Unsullied and the idea of the watch have a lot of similarities. Both are all male, neither is meant to have children, hold land, take wives. The Unsullied fight with the Freemen against the Slavers. The Night's watch now Fights with Free Folk to stop The Night King and his Thralls. The Night King essentially leads a slave army, the Thralls or Wights, and of course the Slavers lead a slave army. In the Books like Jon and sort of the show, Grey Worm served under Mormont, as John also served under Mormont. That's all I can think off the top of my head. Nice catch, it made me think of this theory I once read about Jon becoming the Lord Commander of Dany's Queensguard. The blogger who wrote it deleted his blog but her alluded to it here. Hahaha, sorry it's a good essay, it's just the first thing I saw was the date, and I was like yep we are still waiting. I liked the opening about Stannis and Mel, she did indeed make it happen. This goes back to what some of us Dune fans believe is one of Martin's inspirations for prophecy. Don't get trapped within it or try to make it happen, which goes to what you said about AA character in arrival, about her seeing the future, but just letting it happen. I can probably guess at what led Mel to Stannis, and I would say it is Dragonstone. The ancestral seat of house Targaryen and the Dragons, at least of the last few hundred years. If you have a vision of Dragonstone it would not take long to connect it to the Targaryens and when you are looking for warriors to wake the dragons, well I think Mel jumped to a conclusion and picked the ruler at the time but not the one who should be ruling it. This person is wrong about Dany, she was not reborn before the bleeding star, the bleeding star was the very beginning of the Dothraki burial ritual. She lit the fire and stepped in. Timing is pretty much perfect, and she stepped out and followed the comet to Qarth and well magic and visions and prophecies and Dragons and awesome. Rheagar? Was he right? We don't know he was wrong at least twice and I think he was a lot like Mel, in the sense he was trying to make this happen. Ah the great Jon question. Sorry I am writing this as I look at the essay. I think this blogger is doing a little bit of Mel and Rhaegar, trying to make the essay happen a certain way. Jon must become a monster AA come again in order to battle the monsters. Though Dany is the one that sometimes thinks she is a monster when she is depressed. Which really does not matter, for Martin humans are imperfect creatures there is no pure good or evil, we can all be monsters, and all do good things. Jaime and the Hound are good examples of this. The Queens guard Idea gets bumped around from time to time. I have done it before but mostly to piss off certain Jon fans. Or as I called him Lord Shinny white foot stool. Here is something to look at when you think about inverse parallels in regards to this idea. If you take the unity of opposition, and you start with Stannis as the essay did. You can see how Stannis looks like a mix of the Night's King and AA while he is neither. He did not suck out his wife's soul with a magic sword, he got himself sucked out by Mel. Wait that sounds bad, doesn't matter I am going with it. So his sort of Journey is more like the Night's King but he symbolized by Fire here and not ice. So if you take the Sigil above KL And you consider Stannis and the Night's King, I think you get a clue about the Night's King, Ice Lion. There is also a Lion in the AA myth, along with ice. The Black stag is an interesting symbol, black is the absence of light, and here also a golden lion one of the classical symbols of the sun and light. Of course you get horned lord symbolism with the stag. Now the unity of oppositions says the two essentially clash and sort of merge and change. I think this is the big Night's King origins clue. In support of my the Night's King was a Casterly and associated with or a sort of Pre Stark. I give you this. Bran on the gargoyles of the First keep "They may have been lions once" Both the Night's King and the Casterly's had their names removed from history though the myth still remains we have no records. Tywell of the Rock and Oswell of the vale, not last names. They are from the Rat Cook story but the symbolism is easy enough, sun and moon. Perhaps one ate the other a Sun that swallwed a moon the inverse of what Tyrion said about the moon over Valyria. Finally I give you house Karstark's sigil. Brandon the Builder may equal Brandon Casterly. Changing his name to Stark perhaps he had a mad brother or some such thing or perhaps he was the mad one, who knows. Not sure. But the Sun of winter, the Sun that swallowed a moon, a pale white sun, the sun being tied symbolically to? A Lion in this case a White lion. Martin loves to play with his colors. So two Primary colors are Red and Blue. You mix them and what do you get? Purple, like Targaryen eyes. Another set of primary colors are? Black and White, which see a lot of floating around the Stark children. And in history the inspiration of The Kings Guard armored in White was actually the Night's Watch armored in Black. but Mix the two and you get? Grey. The color of the Starks, in particular their eyes, including Jon. And what does the house of black and white tell us? You serve. And what do the Kings Guard and Night's Watch do? They serve. The inverse symbolism is also tied to two phrases. Valar morghulis "All men must die", Valar dohaeris "All men must serve". In the case of both the Watch and the Kings Guard all men must serve until they die. So it is possible that Jon could become a member of the Queensguard. However there has been a change in Jon's life. The show does not do this, it only happens in the books. If Jon has indeed died like on the show, then Jon reborn should not have grey eyes. The show skips Mels, and Berrics eye color, but in the books their eyes are red. Jon should be reborn by the last kiss, or kissed by fire. This would be the second time, Yiggy being the first which is foreshadowing. Mel will probably be the second in the books as that's the actual ritual the last kiss, breathe them back to life with fire. If Jon's eyes are indeed red, then it is Dany who stands in between Jon and the Night's King, in her we see the unity. Drink from the cups of fire and ice. Which may simply be weirwood sap and shade of the evening. But who knows. Dany is also the bride of fire, and think the third kiss, she does love three. Dany's first husband was symbolized by the sun and fire, her second husband was symbolized when we first meet him with his Dragon wing hair style colored red and black. Which would currently be Jon's colors in the book. We even see that symbolized in one of his dreams. Both slavers too, and both connected to Lions as well. I am waiting to see if an inversion occurs when she arrives in Westeros. You know the transition of the Sun rising in the west and setting in the easy symbolizing her movement. Interesting to note her first Husband Killed a white Lion. He is not symbolized by it. Same for Hiz connected to Lions but not symbolized by them. Curious to see if the next man in her life sort of kills a lion as well.
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Post by sercreighton on Feb 21, 2017 1:14:28 GMT -5
Going to do one more with the core symbol. It's a parallel that helps sort of foreshadow the Night's King. So lion and Stag. Now watch the parallel unfold. Here we have Stannis's sigil, the burning heart. Now I could not really get a picture of the heart of winter, but I figure you get the general idea. Mel and the Night's Queen very similar stories. Sexy soul sucking time. Okay so who defeated Stannis? A Bastard of Winterfell... Sort of. Now begins a transition to the third act, some stories are coming to an end. So Ramsey in turn is defeated by another Bastard of Winterfell and this bastard had help from a lovely young woman named Sansa and the army of the Moon. End act two and begin act 3. And so it begins, and so it ends we come full circle. Stannis is gone and so a new Horned lord enters. As we all know Dany has an army, she soars and she is loaded with excellent Moon symbolism. Now here is the awesome. If you remember when Stannis wanted to win the war he burned a child. We also see Ramsey murder a pregnant women. In Martins world, you play that card and you get the hammer. So if the death of child equals your screwed what would be an inversion of that? But Drogo is dead. "I bear a living child" "My sun" Now we can say that the Night King has sun symbolism. But so dies Jon. Of course Jon was born in Dorne, and what is Jon? Why Jon is a second son. Nod, nod wink wink. Time for some words. After Ice was reforged in the books by Tobho we see one of the blades in Tywin's hand Red and Black as Tyrion describes it, the colors of the Targaryens. Valyrian steel is folded, the show could never show this process, as it is a long process. In Ch. 32 of Swords when Tyrion describes Valyrian steel he describes much as John's eyes are described, "Valyrian Steel was grey so Dark it looked almost black." It's the exact same description as Jon's eyes. He describes the coloring of the sword as waves of "Night and Blood." Tobho will tell him he is not sure how or why the colors turned out the way they did "Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember." So does the north "The North Remembers". How odd Martin would incorrporate these two things into the description a Targaryen colored sword. Tyrion will later take note of the fullers two on the one sword and 3 on Oathkeeper. He will say "if the swords are not twins, they are cousins." So two blades, with Targaryen colors, described as Twins or cousins. Fullers of 3 and 2. One Sword will end up in hand Brie, while the Other may end up with Jaime. Jaime once had a dream similar to Dany's wake the Dragon. Rhaegar appeared to him, and he and Brie had pale burning blades in their hands. "Don't let the fire go out." Is the warning they are given. The first sword the one with Two fullers is the one we see Tyrion describe with a grey similar to Jon's eyes and the North remembers/ Steel remembers comment. 2 is the number, and a good number for a second son. Or as I like to call him a Second Sun. The Blade with 3 Fullers. It's described as 3 inches longer with 3 Fullers. As we know Dany and three go rather well together. Now there seems to be a nice little symbolic metaphor for 2 Targaryens here. And the Number 2 is tied to the sword that seems to have a strangle accurate description to Jon's eyes, his secret heritage and comes with a number, Martin wanted you to note the difference in two and 3. Anyway that's it, I know it's a big post but hey it keeps me out of trouble and it's not really busy in here. Plus lets be honest, it's a pretty good post.
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Post by moiaf on Feb 23, 2017 9:38:09 GMT -5
Going to do one more with the core symbol. It's a parallel that helps sort of foreshadow the Night's King. So lion and Stag. Now watch the parallel unfold. Here we have Stannis's sigil, the burning heart. Now I could not really get a picture of the heart of winter, but I figure you get the general idea. Mel and the Night's Queen very similar stories. Sexy soul sucking time. Okay so who defeated Stannis? A Bastard of Winterfell... Sort of. Now begins a transition to the third act, some stories are coming to an end. So Ramsey in turn is defeated by another Bastard of Winterfell and this bastard had help from a lovely young woman named Sansa and the army of the Moon. End act two and begin act 3. And so it begins, and so it ends we come full circle. Stannis is gone and so a new Horned lord enters. As we all know Dany has an army, she soars and she is loaded with excellent Moon symbolism. Now here is the awesome. If you remember when Stannis wanted to win the war he burned a child. We also see Ramsey murder a pregnant women. In Martins world, you play that card and you get the hammer. So if the death of child equals your screwed what would be an inversion of that? But Drogo is dead. "I bear a living child" "My sun" Now we can say that the Night King has sun symbolism. But so dies Jon. Of course Jon was born in Dorne, and what is Jon? Why Jon is a second son. Nod, nod wink wink. Time for some words. After Ice was reforged in the books by Tobho we see one of the blades in Tywin's hand Red and Black as Tyrion describes it, the colors of the Targaryens. Valyrian steel is folded, the show could never show this process, as it is a long process. In Ch. 32 of Swords when Tyrion describes Valyrian steel he describes much as John's eyes are described, "Valyrian Steel was grey so Dark it looked almost black." It's the exact same description as Jon's eyes. He describes the coloring of the sword as waves of "Night and Blood." Tobho will tell him he is not sure how or why the colors turned out the way they did "Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember." So does the north "The North Remembers". How odd Martin would incorrporate these two things into the description a Targaryen colored sword. Tyrion will later take note of the fullers two on the one sword and 3 on Oathkeeper. He will say "if the swords are not twins, they are cousins." So two blades, with Targaryen colors, described as Twins or cousins. Fullers of 3 and 2. One Sword will end up in hand Brie, while the Other may end up with Jaime. Jaime once had a dream similar to Dany's wake the Dragon. Rhaegar appeared to him, and he and Brie had pale burning blades in their hands. "Don't let the fire go out." Is the warning they are given. The first sword the one with Two fullers is the one we see Tyrion describe with a grey similar to Jon's eyes and the North remembers/ Steel remembers comment. 2 is the number, and a good number for a second son. Or as I like to call him a Second Sun. The Blade with 3 Fullers. It's described as 3 inches longer with 3 Fullers. As we know Dany and three go rather well together. Now there seems to be a nice little symbolic metaphor for 2 Targaryens here. And the Number 2 is tied to the sword that seems to have a strangle accurate description to Jon's eyes, his secret heritage and comes with a number, Martin wanted you to note the difference in two and 3. Anyway that's it, I know it's a big post but hey it keeps me out of trouble and it's not really busy in here. Plus lets be honest, it's a pretty good post. Excellent observation on the symbolism. Martin is so good at interweaving these seemingly unconnected strings into one cohesive whole I love how Dany's two sellword companies are named the Second Sons and the Storm Crows, making the connection with Jon and Dany. Or the vision of the blue-eyed king in Dany's vision in the HOTU, which can be connected to Stannis(who is most likely the one being represented) as well as the Others. There is another very interesting connection between Stannis and the Others and it's related to that blue heart you noted. As you've show there is a relation with it and the heart of winter but there is a third heart it can also be connected to, the one Dany encounters in the House of the Undying: Now, why did I quote this giant ass wall of text? Because 1. it ties in with the blue heart imagery you pointed out below and 2. what happens to Dany here is a warm up for when it's time to face the Others. Look at the description of them when Dany first encounters them, beautiful and elegant, sort of like Will describes the Others in the series prologue. But when you really look at them, they are death personified blue and rotting. The heart that floats in the middle of the table, the heart that gives them life, is swollen with corruption. They are wholly blue from their skin to the whites of their eyes. And when they get near Dany and start to try and consume the fire and life within her she feels that cold that emanates from them. They are cold and blue, their lips and nails are so dark they are almost black, like a certain wight that we know. It's so obvious that this is connected to the Others but it's done in such a subtle way that many people miss the connection. I want to note a few other things that are not related to this general discussion but still interesting. When Dany first encounters the Undying the most beautiful music she's ever heard is playing and as she is leaving the Undying are dancing as the flames consume them. I don't think the use of these terms is a coincidence. Martin is clearly associating the Undying to the general "Song" as they serve as a substitute for the Others. Also, want to note that Dany's heart stopped until Drogon breath fire to destroy the blue rotting heart.
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Post by sercreighton on Feb 23, 2017 11:26:41 GMT -5
Going to read through the post but any idea what happened to the Stannis pic that I had up there next to the Night's king? Gremlins? Going to put it back up.
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Post by moiaf on Feb 23, 2017 11:30:57 GMT -5
Going to read through the post but any idea what happened to the Stannis pic that I had up there next to the Night's king? Gremlins? Going to put it back up. No, I have no idea what happened. The photo might have been moved from it's source and because of that it was no longer valid. That has happened to me before.
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Post by sercreighton on Feb 23, 2017 13:21:28 GMT -5
Going to read through the post but any idea what happened to the Stannis pic that I had up there next to the Night's king? Gremlins? Going to put it back up. No, I have no idea what happened. The photo might have been moved from it's source and because of that it was no longer valid. That has happened to me before. Okay.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 20:53:33 GMT -5
Going to read through the post but any idea what happened to the Stannis pic that I had up there next to the Night's king? Gremlins? Going to put it back up.
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Post by sercreighton on Feb 24, 2017 0:58:13 GMT -5
Going to read through the post but any idea what happened to the Stannis pic that I had up there next to the Night's king? Gremlins? Going to put it back up. Don't joke about that, they don't like it when we joke about them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 0:59:50 GMT -5
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Post by sercreighton on Feb 24, 2017 1:32:59 GMT -5
Going to do one more with the core symbol. It's a parallel that helps sort of foreshadow the Night's King. Excellent observation on the symbolism. Martin is so good at interweaving these seemingly unconnected strings into one cohesive whole I love how Dany's two sellword companies are named the Second Sons and the Storm Crows, making the connection with Jon and Dany. Or the vision of the blue-eyed king in Dany's vision in the HOTU, which can be connected to Stannis(who is most likely the one being represented) as well as the Others. There is another very interesting connection between Stannis and the Others and it's related to that blue heart you noted. As you've show there is a relation with it and the heart of winter but there is a third heart it can also be connected to, the one Dany encounters in the House of the Undying: Now, why did I quote this giant ass wall of text? Because 1. it ties in with the blue heart imagery you pointed out below and 2. what happens to Dany here is a warm up for when it's time to face the Others. Look at the description of them when Dany first encounters them, beautiful and elegant, sort of like Will describes the Others in the series prologue. But when you really look at them, they are death personified blue and rotting. The heart that floats in the middle of the table, the heart that gives them life, is swollen with corruption. They are wholly blue from their skin to the whites of their eyes. And when they get near Dany and start to try and consume the fire and life within her she feels that cold that emanates from them. They are cold and blue, their lips and nails are so dark they are almost black, like a certain wight that we know. It's so obvious that this is connected to the Others but it's done in such a subtle way that many people miss the connection. I want to note a few other things that are not related to this general discussion but still interesting. When Dany first encounters the Undying the most beautiful music she's ever heard is playing and as she is leaving the Undying are dancing as the flames consume them. I don't think the use of these terms is a coincidence. Martin is clearly associating the Undying to the general "Song" as they serve as a substitute for the Others. Also, want to note that Dany's heart stopped until Drogon breath fire to destroy the blue rotting heart. Oh of course, it's a heavy allusion to the Others, the Milk men as well with water in their veins and the blue slippers. It's kind of weird but Qarth is kind of like Dany's journey into the Dark and terrible land of OZ. Even Quaithe her good witch of the north, sort of and her little Dog Drogon. Is it a dream? Is it real? Though you know Dany, gotta throw fire on them instead of water. The door to the Undying that Drogon leads her to when room full of beautiful wizards are trying to distract her, aka the truth behind the Curtain. It's not OZ but it''s like Martins dark corrupt version of it, taking place in his world, like how Qarth is like the Emerald city, her long journey there, the greatest city that ever was. Still the one of the best parts of the series. I also see the heart and the undying as a reflection of the Others, Warlocks as well. I sub in the Warlocks for the Children, sounds crazy until you see the hint of those little Rat Face dudes and the sap parallels that I know well and good you have looked at and talked about many a time. This too, the Undying is one of your favorite topics. See I am a good guy I remember this stuff. Just don't ask me to remember Birthdays. Because I totally forgot my moms today. So bad, I got it so bad today. Euron mixes in well for a wanna be night King also and is generally the first clue I ever got that the Night King wants his bride. Thing is I like to find the Backwards in the symbolism, and I don't see another floating heart in the Future, it could happen but I think the Heart actually represents the Night's King himself. I very curious to find out about the Wight's as well, because I wonder if they are sentient to some extent like the Undying, controlled but something going on upstairs. Like the heart keeps them alive right? Just like the Night King keeps the Thralls alive, well undead. I also love the idea that we see several characters who appear to trap themselves in Prophecy, Mel, Rhaegar, I believe Euron and the Night's king and the Warlocks and the Undying, the Undying are trapped there forever. One of my favorite moments though is the Black and white Door that acts as a curtain, between the Juxtaposed Beautiful Undying and the rotting Corpses. Inverse parallel, I created that . I absolutely love that dark mirror he sets up there, what lies beneath, he does it so much. Even something like the Gold Company works with it, "Beneath the Gold, The Bitter Steel." I thought the show did something interesting with the Undying, but I would have killed for the book version.
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Post by sercreighton on Feb 24, 2017 1:37:29 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 15:11:41 GMT -5
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