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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2019 9:59:57 GMT -5
I keep seeing complaints about characters acting ooc, but not once have I seen someone explaining which characters exactly and for what reason. To me everyone acted exactly as I would expect...? I agree otherwise except I don't understand why Sansa and Arya are suddenly acting like Cersei & Joffrey in Season 1. They are? I don't see it.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2019 11:04:28 GMT -5
I agree otherwise except I don't understand why Sansa and Arya are suddenly acting like Cersei & Joffrey in Season 1. They are? I don't see it. Sansa is delusional just like Cersei. She's shocked that Arya respects Dany's help (lol wtf) and to her Daenerys' help doesn't even matter because Arya is the one who killed the NK. It's just idiocy. She gives no credit to others except herself. Arya doesn't trust Dany only because she is not one of the Starks. She doesn't even want to get to know her, simply because she is not a Stark. The Starks apparently don't need any allies either, "they are family" after all. Seems to me pretty similar in thinking to the Lannister way - everyone but us is the enemy, and House Lannister has no equals. Not to mention Sansa immediately turning her back on Jon after proclaiming how they need to keep together. Ned kept this secret for 18 years and she blurts it out immediately to a Lannister! See the hypocrisy here?
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Post by izzue on May 8, 2019 22:11:53 GMT -5
But I've got it recorded from Sunday night, heh, heh, heh. Going to watch it now on DVR.
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Post by ladystoneboobs on May 9, 2019 3:52:58 GMT -5
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Post by Basil on May 9, 2019 9:28:38 GMT -5
omg
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Post by TheMadQueen on May 9, 2019 18:46:58 GMT -5
on a rewatch, i kind of liked this episode and am coming to appreciate what they are trying to do. i think the standoff outside KL was really, really well done. yes it's stupid that they got blindsided by euron's fleet, but beyond that, i don't think this was poorly done. at all.
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Post by nikma on May 9, 2019 19:44:17 GMT -5
I feel like I'm in parallel universe when I see vocal online reaction to this episode. What they say just doesn't make sense to me.
Claiming that this was the worst episode in the show is laughable.
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Post by TheArchmaester on May 9, 2019 20:21:55 GMT -5
I feel like I'm in parallel universe when I see vocal online reaction to this episode. What they say just doesn't make sense to me. Claiming that this was the worst episode in the show is laughable. The meltdown regarding this episode is incomprehensible to me. Especially when the criticism comes from people who think the show has been "dumbed down" since season 5. Now we get an episode that asks uncomfortable questions about ALL of our "heroes" (not just Dany but the noble Starks as well) and people lose their mind? It may not be perfect but worst of the show? Narratively and thematically it's more ambitious than any episode in years. Whoever said that the "The Rains of Castamere" would have been lambasted if it wasn't based on previously existing literature was spot on.
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Post by sercreighton on May 10, 2019 1:15:11 GMT -5
I feel like I'm in parallel universe when I see vocal online reaction to this episode. What they say just doesn't make sense to me. Claiming that this was the worst episode in the show is laughable. The meltdown regarding this episode is incomprehensible to me. Especially when the criticism comes from people who think the show has been "dumbed down" since season 5. Now we get an episode that asks uncomfortable questions about ALL of our "heroes" (not just Dany but the noble Starks as well) and people lose their mind? It may not be perfect but worst of the show? Narratively and thematically it's more ambitious than any episode in years. Whoever said that the "The Rains of Castamere" would have been lambasted if it wasn't based on previously existing literature was spot on. It stems from basic flaws in the writing. D&D knew the ending they wanted but not how to get there exactly, rather than a cohesive narrative based on logic and development, they began doing more and expediting or plot servicing, they mix in spectical and high levels of subversion in order to try and keep it interesting. Rather than feel like a natural part of the story developed over time, plot servicing cuts past development to get from point a to b in order to service the plot. This is why we see so much teleporting. Thrones historically has been slow paced now it is fast paced, to fast. Season 7. Dany doesn't take out Cersei when she could easily do it. In order to keep Cersei around after the Arival of Dany we see plot servicing. We need to weaken Dany as we move towards a conclusion. So Euron acts as a plot device teleporting all over the place destroying her fleet in seconds, and eliminating Dorne. Jaime quickly sacks Highgarden. Reason given why the battle was cut and so short. The reach is bad at fighting. Stupid and contrived but acts to advance the plot quickly. Tyrion is a moron for the entire season, not likely for the series but now he is wrong all the time. Why? to advance the plot. Night King needs a dragon? So the moronic journey beyond the wall. It doesn't make sense, the lake doesn't freeze for him till just in time for Dany to arrive. Gendry runs back to the Wall and Dany flies to a distant location on a continent she has never really been on and locates them quickly and easily. People who know not to trust Cersei, trust her for no real reason. Why? To service the plot, they need a reason to allow Dany to move north. Poorly thought out, it defies logic but they don't care a to b. What is the NK goal? To erase memory. Is this really thought out? Not really cause all he is doing is killing everyone, there is no real goal but they needed an excuse to make Bran bait. Does Bran have a plot? Not really, he's bait. Dany goes north to help them and the Northerners who now trust the Wildlings there life long enemy are surprisingly xenophobic. Sansa is downright spiteful but they don't want to bend the knee. Though bending the knee seems like a better option than being slaughtered by an Undead hoard. Dothraki charge, it looks cool but is moronic and there was no reason for it. You could also note that Dany's 40k screamers were only 10k at the battle. Post battle, Sansa hates Dany. Again defies logic and has little depth and a single uninterrupted conversation probably solves the problem but no. Plot servicing, they need them at odds and don't have time to develop it. Euron kills a dragon, they needed one fewer dragon, they used their super magic big crossbows and poof. Missy gets trapped by Cersei. Why? They need to kill her in front of Dany in order to give her a reason to snap. So like a bunch of idiots they travel to KL to watch missy get executed with a handful of people. Why doesn't Cersei just kill all of them, like she normally would? They need them for the next episode, so plot servicing. There is a reason people say it doesn't feel like thrones, and they would be right. The pace is different, there is no development, nothing feels like an earned development. They are just getting it done as quickly as they can as dumbed down as the can, and all natural development is gone. Just do point A to B forget everything else. What did D&D say about Rhaegal dying? Dany forgot about the Iron fleet, they also forgot Cersei was bad essentially. The NK is a perfect example, they wanted the war over as quickly as possible. So in season 7 they introduce the insta kill plot device. Stupid, but it got the job done to advance the plot. Probably the same reason Martin is having problems, he over expanded his world, and now he has to bring it to a close and he said two books. He can't do it in two the way he writes or it won't feel natural to him. So he is probably doing a lot more rewriting rather than development writing. He could have probably finished already if he had done 4 books, rather squeeze it all into two. But he keeps going over it rather than just following his own process. He likes to write a lot and slowly develop things. Look at his last book, and the World books, he gave them 10x what they needed for it.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2019 1:30:58 GMT -5
I feel like I'm in parallel universe when I see vocal online reaction to this episode. What they say just doesn't make sense to me. Claiming that this was the worst episode in the show is laughable. The meltdown regarding this episode is incomprehensible to me. Especially when the criticism comes from people who think the show has been "dumbed down" since season 5. Now we get an episode that asks uncomfortable questions about ALL of our "heroes" (not just Dany but the noble Starks as well) and people lose their mind? It may not be perfect but worst of the show? Narratively and thematically it's more ambitious than any episode in years. Whoever said that the "The Rains of Castamere" would have been lambasted if it wasn't based on previously existing literature was spot on. It's not the worst episode by any stretch of the imagination but among the weakest for sure from many angles. This episodes DOES NOT ask uncomfortable questions about our heroes but makes them act stupidly, irrationally and out of character. Unless you mean Sansa basically admitting that what she had to endure rape, abuse made her stronger and who she is rn which many actresses/people in general out there called them out on. Missandei only WOC on the show died that way in chains. So Starks acting as Lannister is fine too, I guess. Dany goes full-mad sure out of grief but the show has not done a very good job highlighting that before. It's possibly where GRRM is heading with her character in the books but you need a proper set up for that to work. As far as show goes, it doesn't work as ruthless doesn't equal mad. Jon is not the same Jon we know, someone stole him before this season.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2019 6:03:01 GMT -5
The meltdown regarding this episode is incomprehensible to me. Especially when the criticism comes from people who think the show has been "dumbed down" since season 5. Now we get an episode that asks uncomfortable questions about ALL of our "heroes" (not just Dany but the noble Starks as well) and people lose their mind? It may not be perfect but worst of the show? Narratively and thematically it's more ambitious than any episode in years. Whoever said that the "The Rains of Castamere" would have been lambasted if it wasn't based on previously existing literature was spot on. It's not the worst episode by any stretch of the imagination but among the weakest for sure from many angles. This episodes DOES NOT ask uncomfortable questions about our heroes but makes them act stupidly, irrationally and out of character. Unless you mean Sansa basically admitting that what she had to endure rape, abuse made her stronger and who she is rn which many actresses/people in general out there called them out on. Missandei only WOC on the show died that way in chains. So Starks acting as Lannister is fine too, I guess. Dany goes full-mad sure out of grief but the show has not done a very good job highlighting that before. It's possibly where GRRM is heading with her character in the books but you need a proper set up for that to work. As far as show goes, it doesn't work as ruthless doesn't equal mad. Jon is not the same Jon we know, someone stole him before this season. Why does it matter in which way Missandei dies? And should the character's actress's skin colour somehow matter in this situation?
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Post by Envie on May 10, 2019 8:18:02 GMT -5
*Edit: Thought I should throw a Disclaimer in here - the essay below Roose's quote is coming from someone who has been, for years, a Daenerys fan. You guys here know that. This is me coming to terms with the reality of the situation we're at in the finale and trying to unravel the 'reasons' behind what's happening. I've thought a lot about Missandei's death and how powerful that is against Daenerys. It makes me have to realize and accept the fact that as much as I love Daenerys, she's making massive mistakes right now. Is this the show writers rushing her to this conclusion or is this how it goes for her in the books over a longer period of time? I don't know. I can only take what we have in front of us and though it makes me unhappy... I'm rationalizing it and trying to see how this plays out in a satisfying way. Maybe it just doesn't. Why does it matter in which way Missandei dies? And should the character's actress's skin colour somehow matter in this situation? I agree. People are mistaking racism for the symbolism of Missandei's death. While yes, I know the show has garnered criticism for showing many of the Essos slaves as 'brown skinned' races - that's a product of the races in Essos in general. Let us not forget the Dothraki, one of the biggest cultures contributing to the slave trade in Essos are brown-skinned as well. There were white skinned slaves in Volantis, Qarth, and Meereen too on the show. But that's again, not the point here. The point of Missandei's death (and I do think it mattered for the symbolism) - is that she met Daenerys as a slave. Daenerys freed her and became the 'Breaker of Chains' for thousands more - which was a strong political stance Missandei took throughout their journey and her relationship with Dany. Missandei, dying in chains, was symbolic of destroying a piece of what both Missandei and Daenerys stood for as liberators. What, or who are they supposed to be liberating in Westeros? Much as the crucifixions of both the slave children by the masters - and then later the masters by Dany symbolized a sort of horrifying retribution symbol in the war against slavery in Essos ... Missandei back in chains and publicly executed as a pawn demonstrated an example of Daenerys underestimating her opponent and instead of breaking chains, or breaking the wheel she so desperately wants to do. She's, in fact, creating yet another cycle of it. Crucifying the Masters in Meereen did not give Daenerys the intended effect she wanted. "I will fight injustice with justice" didn't really work in Meereen. The Masters just went underground with their Sons of The Harpy movement. Fighting injustice with what Dany thinks is Justice (Fire and Blood) in Westeros isn't going to work either. Cersei, for all her flaws, isn't doing anything to make the people hate her worse despite how badly they treated her during her walk-of-shame. And, though she's putting them in the Red Keep as human shields, for the people 'in general' in King's Landing and Westeros - she's going on the same as any other ruler would... managing the city and needs of the people. Daenerys making a demonstration with Drogon will only reconfirm her as an evil conqueror in the eyes of the smallfolk. It's not "freeing" them, or breaking any chains, or any wheels because they aren't slaves like it was in Essos. The people of Westeros, by comparison, lead fairly average lives where anyone can work their way up from a peasant to a merchant or shopkeeper, farmer, skilled tradesman, military, even a knight or Lord with the right ambitions and skills. There's no hard caste system where the lowly are tattooed and forever doomed to a life of servitude. Sure, there's poverty and abuse in Westeros galore ... but it's the hardline against slavery that sets it apart and makes it a totally different ballgame than Essos was for Daenerys. The people in Westeros don't really want or need to be 'liberated' from anything because Dany is simply another conqueror who would sit on the throne like all those before her. She never seemed to get the point that despite wanting to be different from all those before her, she's still the same and in fact, worse, because she's willing to burn people alive with her dragons. So the big takeaway from Missandei's execution should be that she died in chains - which Dany had fought to free her (and hundreds of thousands of others) from in the first place, and therefore Daenerys is losing her political campaign promises by the bucketloads in Westeros. There are no slaves to free and the smallfolk have reason to be terrified of her. Soldiers are terrified of her... who exactly does she expect to win over now? She should have spent just as many years in Westeros learning to rule and win over the people as she did in Essos to be honest. The story is rushing her to the finish line and from what I can tell, she's not going to be the victorious queen she had hoped to be. Missandei's death was all of that in a nutshell. Shouting "Dracarys" simply encourages Daenerys to "Burn them all!" ... and there we have the ultimate threat of her downfall.
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Post by TheArchmaester on May 10, 2019 9:50:09 GMT -5
The meltdown regarding this episode is incomprehensible to me. Especially when the criticism comes from people who think the show has been "dumbed down" since season 5. Now we get an episode that asks uncomfortable questions about ALL of our "heroes" (not just Dany but the noble Starks as well) and people lose their mind? It may not be perfect but worst of the show? Narratively and thematically it's more ambitious than any episode in years. Whoever said that the "The Rains of Castamere" would have been lambasted if it wasn't based on previously existing literature was spot on. It's not the worst episode by any stretch of the imagination but among the weakest for sure from many angles. This episodes DOES NOT ask uncomfortable questions about our heroes but makes them act stupidly, irrationally and out of character. Unless you mean Sansa basically admitting that what she had to endure rape, abuse made her stronger and who she is rn which many actresses/people in general out there called them out on. Missandei only WOC on the show died that way in chains. So Starks acting as Lannister is fine too, I guess. Dany goes full-mad sure out of grief but the show has not done a very good job highlighting that before. It's possibly where GRRM is heading with her character in the books but you need a proper set up for that to work. As far as show goes, it doesn't work as ruthless doesn't equal mad. Jon is not the same Jon we know, someone stole him before this season. I don't recall Sansa saying that rape made her stronger. People reducing Missandei to her skin color are insulting to both the character and the actress. She was written as literate, smart, peaceful - I couldn't care less about the color of her skin. The fact she died in chains is the whole point of the scene. Cersei is taunting Daenerys, reminding her of her perceived identity as a liberator, as Envie points out in an above post. And Missandei doesn't go out weeping, she goes out strong. I'm still waiting for someone to explain who is acting out of character in this episode. So far I got nothing. The Starks have been victimized since the show began. They've toughened up as a result, maybe too much. Yes, maybe they're being selfish. But why they got to be the way they are now is fully understandable. Sansa is all about safety now, and that means securing a home, a family. And no, she doesn't trust Dany much - guess what, nobody does (in Westeros). Dany isn't mad (in this episode). Again, we have all been watching different episodes apparently, and that's fine.
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Post by stannisforking299al on May 10, 2019 10:32:02 GMT -5
I feel like I'm in parallel universe when I see vocal online reaction to this episode. What they say just doesn't make sense to me. Claiming that this was the worst episode in the show is laughable. It's the most recent episode. That's why. Doesn't change the fact this episode was probably one of the worst in the shows run.
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Post by Envie on May 10, 2019 13:04:39 GMT -5
People reducing Missandei to her skin color are insulting to both the character and the actress. She was written as literate, smart, peaceful - I couldn't care less about the color of her skin. The fact she died in chains is the whole point of the scene. Cersei is taunting Daenerys, reminding her of her perceived identity as a liberator, as Envie points out in an above post. And Missandei doesn't go out weeping, she goes out strong. Great point about the actress herself that I didn't make in my essay. If they had cast a white actress, people would have screamed about the injustice of not casting a woman of color. So they stayed true to the books and cast who they did and now it's being taken as a racial issue because Missandei was put in chains? Some people are really stretching for reasons to make real-life issues justified in a fantasy story. I'm still waiting for someone to explain who is acting out of character in this episode. So far I got nothing. I agree, I haven't been able to find anyone acting out of character in 804 despite maybe not exactly liking the results of each character ... well, acting in character! I wasn't thrilled that Jaime decided to go back to his crack addiction with Cersei - but that's totally in character for him. Arya was the most in character turning down Gendry and eventually taking off with Sandor, despite telling Jon they all needed to stick together. Sansa is playing her little game and this ability comes from Littlefinger, people, not from her being raped. The internet needs to stop looking for every reason possible to scream about how rape is handled in shows because at least it's being addressed at all unlike times where it was forbidden to ever speak about it ... that's a recent turn of events from my parent's generation so at least women can now be strong and talk about it without being silent. Who else was out of character? Jon didn't say good-bye to Ghost ... welp, I hate to point it out but Jon hasn't really acknowledged Ghost in years - people should be more mad about that since before he got murdered at the wall! Turns out he's a crappy direwolf partner. Dany has been painfully in-character. I had hoped she was about to turn the corner and change for the better ... but like Jaime, I guess the mold is set. They are who they are and they don't want to change unless forced to do so. We also don't know how this is going to play out yet for Jaime, or Daenerys, or Jon ... well those who subscribe to leaks may or may not but that's a topic for another forum and I'll just go bury myself back in the non-spoiler thread now.
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