Envie
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"If I look back I am lost."
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"If I look back I am lost."
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Post by Envie on Jun 7, 2019 9:38:16 GMT -5
I would say it's fine that people's opinions differ, but I find it a bit irritating that we get accused of strawman arguments and not having explained Dany's motivations beyond just saying "it was foreshadowed". That is not true. Many of us have explained how it was not only foreshadowed but how Dany's character development made sense on top of that. I tried to do that here for example: housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/post/73005I'd say at this point we can only agree to disagree, to be honest. But I will not lie, I'm a bit bothered by how certain fans complain about people who are overall happy with S8 and who were not surprised by Dany's development. Who is trying to convince who here? : lol: Taking the entire argument incorrectly out of context and then giving the tired old ending of "but we can only agree to disagree" is also considered poor discussion form, I think you know that already. It's a passive aggressive way to continue the argument while claiming you're not actually arguing or disagreeing. By replying that way, you are continuing the friction without supplying any sort of valid material to the discussion. "We" by the way, was not you. Two people in particular continue to say that those of us arguing that the season was bad are just "butthurt" that THEIR favorite character didn't get the ending they wanted. And THAT is a straw man argument. If you don't know what that is, or who is doing it, you shouldn't be defending them. Edit: Nevermind. I just realized I don't actually care anymore. Removed my response. The argument is stupid. The handful of you here in this forum who continue to cling to your S8 happiness can have it. I'm out.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2019 9:51:51 GMT -5
I have argued why I think the season and in particular Daenerys worked in the past. But every time I have done so, I've felt like I've been talking to a brick wall and that people are willfully ignoring things about her character that I've pointed out. No one has replied to me to explain why everything about Dany that supports this action is not enough or doesn't work. It's hard not to then think that people just don't want to listen.
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laurya
Drogon
I drink and I burn things. AND I WANTED THOSE ELEPHANTS.
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Post by laurya on Jun 7, 2019 10:15:33 GMT -5
I would say it's fine that people's opinions differ, but I find it a bit irritating that we get accused of strawman arguments and not having explained Dany's motivations beyond just saying "it was foreshadowed". That is not true. Many of us have explained how it was not only foreshadowed but how Dany's character development made sense on top of that. I tried to do that here for example: housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/post/73005I'd say at this point we can only agree to disagree, to be honest. But I will not lie, I'm a bit bothered by how certain fans complain about people who are overall happy with S8 and who were not surprised by Dany's development. Who is trying to convince who here? : lol: Taking the entire argument incorrectly out of context and then giving the tired old ending of "but we can only agree to disagree" is also considered poor discussion form, I think you know that already. It's a passive aggressive way to continue the argument while claiming you're not actually arguing or disagreeing. By replying that way, you are continuing the friction without supplying any sort of valid material to the discussion. "We" by the way, was not you. Two people in particular continue to say that those of us arguing that the season was bad are just "butthurt" that THEIR favorite character didn't get the ending they wanted. And THAT is a straw man argument. If you don't know what that is, or who is doing it, you shouldn't be defending them. Edit: Nevermind. I just realized I don't actually care anymore. Removed my response. The argument is stupid. The handful of you here in this forum who continue to cling to your S8 happiness can have it. I'm out. With all due respect Envie, I don't get why you're so upset that some of us liked the season? While mostly I disagree I totally understood your criticism towards Dany's arc in particular. Some agree with you, some don't. It's fine. But condescending remarks toward those who disagree with you like in your last paragraph are totally uncalled for in my opinion. THAT is poor discussion form.
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nikma
Syrax
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Post by nikma on Jun 7, 2019 10:20:35 GMT -5
It's hard to have normal discussion when people act like they are personally offended by your opinion and they don't want to show any level or respect that someone can think otherwise. It's almost ad hominem attacks. Only they know objective truth and that's it. Not only that there is no respect for different opinion but there is such a high level of bitterness toward fans of S8.
This concept of "everyone has different taste" seems completely strange to a lot of people.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2019 10:24:16 GMT -5
I would say it's fine that people's opinions differ, but I find it a bit irritating that we get accused of strawman arguments and not having explained Dany's motivations beyond just saying "it was foreshadowed". That is not true. Many of us have explained how it was not only foreshadowed but how Dany's character development made sense on top of that. I tried to do that here for example: housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/post/73005I'd say at this point we can only agree to disagree, to be honest. But I will not lie, I'm a bit bothered by how certain fans complain about people who are overall happy with S8 and who were not surprised by Dany's development. Who is trying to convince who here? : lol: Taking the entire argument incorrectly out of context and then giving the tired old ending of "but we can only agree to disagree" is also considered poor discussion form, I think you know that already. It's a passive aggressive way to continue the argument while claiming you're not actually arguing or disagreeing. By replying that way, you are continuing the friction without supplying any sort of valid material to the discussion. "We" by the way, was not you. Two people in particular continue to say that those of us arguing that the season was bad are just "butthurt" that THEIR favorite character didn't get the ending they wanted. And THAT is a straw man argument. If you don't know what that is, or who is doing it, you shouldn't be defending them. Edit: Nevermind. I just realized I don't actually care anymore. Removed my response. The argument is stupid. The handful of you here in this forum who continue to cling to your S8 happiness can have it. I'm out. I didn't post anything valid to the discussion? I just posted a link to a post full of good arguments that was ignored back then. Every time I or someone else posted something like that, the content of said posts was largely ignored. Just like now. I know what a straw man argument is. I tend to use word that I'm familiar with. I believe the reason why said posters have the impression that people are just "butthurt" about Dany's ending is because of people's unwillingness to have a reasonable discussion about this. I have had the same experience tbh. Either my arguments are ignored or my posts are met with an inappropriate level of aggression. In fact, before posting ANYTHING about Dany around here, I try to triple check what I'm actually saying so that I don't piss off anybody. But that is a fruitless endeavour. There is always someone here who overreacts. I don't think you are interested in any meaningful discussion unless I echo your opinion. Your last sentence proves this: "The handful of you here in this forum who continue to cling to your S8 happiness can have it. I'm out."
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nikma
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Post by nikma on Jun 7, 2019 10:36:07 GMT -5
Good post about Daenerys:
I actually thought that was a magnificent episode, & better still, it makes you look at your own perceptions. How much did music & presentation make us overlook what Dany has done since the first season? In retrospect, her fall is obvious. This is so incredibly REAL - we fall for politicians (on all sides), we worship celebrities. This is a very needed slap, & we deserve it. Maybe it’s easier if you didn’t worship Daenerys - she was never my favorite, though I tried to get behind the idea of her as hero at times. But I never felt it. I thought it was just a badly written character at times - inconsistent. “Am I supposed to like you, or what?”
It’s a shame to see it bashed, & ‘character assassination’ thrown around. That’s not true. Even Tyrion - people keep saying he’s stupid, same as Jon. They both should have done this or that to stop her. But nothing they could have done would have stopped her. She would have done this, sooner or later. Tyrion isn’t just smart -he’s an idealist, despite calling himself a cynic. A jaded idealist. And he has a good heart. Jon does, too. They failed to stop a charming psychopath, and they fell for the charm. But if that charm didn’t work, our real life history would be a far different story. What they have to do is handle her now, & rebuild after.
The thing I’ve always come back to is - so what’s the point? What was GRRM’s theme here? The fight against the dead? I thought so - but that’s not huge. “Join together or die.” It’s also not dark. Now I see it, & I value it greatly. It’s about who we are, what we fall for, what we’ll accept because we ‘believe.’ That makes it brilliant. In some ways, the ff fury is just part of the show. Right now,they’re Grey Worm, fighting for a Queen in fury and vengeance, even though that Queen is a monster. I’ve seen people say she was right to burn the city because the people didn’t ‘accept her.’ How much more evidence do we need to realize this story is really about us?
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Nezzer
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 8, 2019 0:51:37 GMT -5
It's finally here:
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konradsmith
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Post by konradsmith on Jun 8, 2019 0:59:12 GMT -5
Where's Al to switch most of this into the post-episode discussion? Technically I could attempt it with my pseudo-mod powers but I just know I'd fuck it up somehow.
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Nezzer
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 8, 2019 1:11:39 GMT -5
Where's Al to switch most of this into the post-episode discussion? Technically I could attempt it with my pseudo-mod powers but I just know I'd fuck it up somehow. I have faith in you Konrad.
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konradsmith
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Post by konradsmith on Jun 8, 2019 1:15:37 GMT -5
Thought you meant the Inside the Episode and Game Revealed. But tbh I'm not too fond of Alt Shift X. And mostly for the shallow reason of disliking his voice and repetitive line delivery. Which is essentially why I can't stand nine out of ten youtubers. They're either way too enthusiastic and forced in their delivery or very flat with a bunch of vocal fry and a limited vocal range. He's the latter type. Not to get all old-mannish about this but broadcasting courses exist for a reason.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2019 1:26:28 GMT -5
Where's Al to switch most of this into the post-episode discussion? Technically I could attempt it with my pseudo-mod powers but I just know I'd fuck it up somehow. It doesn’t matter tbh. I would move it but if people want to post here it’s fine.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2019 1:32:49 GMT -5
Although there might still be some people that can’t see this thread now that I think of it... alcasinoroyale or I (when I’m sober) will deal with it.
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konradsmith
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Post by konradsmith on Jun 8, 2019 1:35:54 GMT -5
Although there might still be some people that can’t see this thread now that I think of it... alcasinoroyale or I ( when I’m sober) will deal with it. Another reason why I definitely won't attempt it now.
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Nezzer
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 8, 2019 2:10:36 GMT -5
Thought you meant the Inside the Episode and Game Revealed. But tbh I'm not too fond of Alt Shift X. And mostly for the shallow reason of disliking his voice and repetitive line delivery. Which is essentially why I can't stand nine out of ten youtubers. They're either way too enthusiastic and forced in their delivery or very flat with a bunch of vocal fry and a limited vocal range. He's the latter type. Not to get all old-mannish about this but broadcasting courses exist for a reason. I love the format of his presentation and I almost always agree with everything he says, but yeah I don't like his voice and delivery either, he seems bored and apathetic, as if he was trying to be a neutral intellectual reviewer. I can understand why some people wouldn't like him, but the level of depth his analyses usually have makes up for it IMHO.
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konradsmith
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Post by konradsmith on Jun 8, 2019 2:28:29 GMT -5
Thought you meant the Inside the Episode and Game Revealed. But tbh I'm not too fond of Alt Shift X. And mostly for the shallow reason of disliking his voice and repetitive line delivery. Which is essentially why I can't stand nine out of ten youtubers. They're either way too enthusiastic and forced in their delivery or very flat with a bunch of vocal fry and a limited vocal range. He's the latter type. Not to get all old-mannish about this but broadcasting courses exist for a reason. I love the format of his presentation and I almost always agree with everything he says, but yeah I don't like his voice and delivery either, he seems bored and apathetic, as if he was trying to be a neutral intellectual reviewer. I can understand why some people wouldn't like him, but the level of depth his analyses usually have makes up for it IMHO. His attempts at humour don't really land with me either. Especially since he just takes fandom jokes and acts like they're his creations. But yeah, he's a good editor and producer overall. I've never found his observations to be terribly novel but I get why his formula is so effective on youtube. But with youtube videos I really can't get beyond bad speaking voices. The other day I saw a link to a video essay talking about Travis Bickle from Taxi Driver (one of my all-time favourite movies) and all the comments were about how well analyzed it was and astute and whatnot. But I had to tap out after a minute or so because of the terrible speaking voice the dude had. I have the same quibbles with newsmen and anchors. So many are getting put on tv based on their credentials in print journalism. But that very seldom translates onscreen into an effective broadcaster. For my money they should be going with radio people because not only do they have the voices for it but they can speak better on the fly and improv etc...but
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