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Post by TheArchmaester on Jun 8, 2019 15:26:08 GMT -5
I don't understand why people can't hate / love / be indifferent to the season in peace. No one is going to convince anyone of anything because there's no right argument.
I myself am in a pretty weird position since I loved episodes 2, 4 and 5 (and 3 was a great spectacle), but I thought the finale dropped the ball. Dany is no hero but neither are Jon (who basically kills her to save Sansa and Arya), Tyrion or the Starks. The finale needed more of an edge to work imo. Less "Dany is evil" and more "everyone here is compromised to the point of no return". If that sounds too dark, I think it could have worked if you heightened the irony and the absurdity of it all. The small council scene and the montage of the not-so-heroic Starks rising to power could have used a more ominous ring to it. These people are not going to make the world a better place either.
At least, that's my opinion on this. That this story is basically an anti-epic about disillusionment with power and a fundamental inescapable flaw about the human condition. I applaud that they went there with Daenerys but they should've gone further with the other characters for the point to be even more powerful.
I also see a lot of people reducing the story to a banal "Power corrupts" message. A quick analysis of the story shows that not to be the case. Take arguably the 3 biggest atrocities of the story (not counting wars): the Red Wedding, the Sept Explosion and the King's Landing massacre. The first done by a minor lord out of resentment and pettiness; the second by a cornered Queen Mother at her most powerless; the last perpetrated by a well-meaning but utterly deluded savior figure in a moment of extreme weakness. If people think the message is "Power corrupts", well...
Imo what the show is exploring is something far more interesting: the gulf between external motivations (for example, a moral desire to make the world a better place) and internal motivations that go ten times deeper. Dany frees slaves in Slaver's Bay so we declare her a "good person", but the show is arguing that this is a mistake. This is only the action, not the motive, and Dany is driven by an intimate, primal need to assert her superiority at all times. Her uniqueness is confirmed (in her mind) through her actions: she needs the actions to confirm it for her. It's not far off from the idea of manifest destiny and it seems like a safe bet that GRRM is using her to make a point about his own country and to express his disillusionment with its failed moral premise.
But this also raises another interesting point about the reaction to the final season. If you think people can be 100% altruistic and selfless in their motives, if you think there's no divide between character's rhetoric and their real selves, you aren't going to accept GRRM's message no matter how he sells it (or how D&D sell it). And this is totally understandable. I reject the message of well-made movies or books all the time.
Finally, I just want to say I think what the show's message is completely at odds with 2019 sensibilities. The hatred Season 8 incites is not explained by "lack of character development" or nonsensical plot points. Not after the atrocity that was the Qarth storyline from season 2, Dorne, parts of Season 7, etc. No, I think the show (flawed as it is!) has touched a nerve. We live in a culture that tells us we're special - not only does the show say that we're not special, it says we should be wary of people who proclaim their uniqueness and moral superiority to the world. And most people in 2019 are addicted to the concept of moral superiority, empowerment and most of all to the idea of not compromising when it comes to fighting a perceived evil.
All of them concepts embodied by Daenerys Targaryen. Could the show have been better? Hell yes. But the ending was going to be detested no matter how it was presented.
It's an affront to 2019 culture, written by a man whose vision of the world was shaped by the tragedy of the Vietnam War, the moral deterioration and hypocrisy of post-war US and the failures of Communist regimes proclaiming worldwide equality, and that is felt across the whole story. It was never going to be an epic about people finding their better selves and turning the world into "Paradise", which is what people want in 2019.
Anyway those are basically my final thoughts. Good season, weak finale, but overall a thought-provoking show that tells us something about ourselves - in terms of what we accept and reject about the story. And it's going to go down as the epic story that defined the 2010s, even though that's maybe not what it is at all.
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Post by nikma on Jun 8, 2019 16:10:57 GMT -5
I agree. And that's why people like "Just Write" and the rest of YT completely missed the point of the story.
This is not a story about idealists building a better world and changing social norms, not story about redepemtion even for the worst of us and for sure not a story that says that humanity can put aside their differences and live together. That was idea Jon had. But that's not what writers of the story think. Humanity won't come together, there are no saviors, no catharsis. Even in the end of the show we see seeds of future conflicts.
And I agree that the story asks deeper questions about bind loyalty to leaders, about flaws od idealism and black and white perspective of the world. And that the enemy are not others, we are the enemies, humans are the biggest monsters and ruins of KL are that "better world" they promised us.
And when we speak about execution and structure of the narrative Benioff and Weiss were consistent even in their flaws. This was never "character study" type of show. It was mostly plot driven and fast paced with a lot of spectacle. It's true, the show never really explored what it means for Jon to be Targaryan. But just like it never really explored what it means for Tyrion to kill his father, or for Cersei to lose her children, how it feels for Jon to be back, how Sansa deals with magical elements of the story that she never experienced before, we never saw internal struggle where Stannis decides to kill his child and so on.
We got the same old writing style D&D gave us in the past. Nothing more. But nothing less.
I'm still happy that D&D were brave enough to write a season like this, in current times of entertainment where shows and movies are there to make you feel good. And if they make you feel sad it also has to be in very safe and predictable way that won't challenge your worldview. Heroic death like Tony Stark had, that's what's only allowed. Almost heroic death for Walter White, that's what's considered the best TV ending ever.
But broken Luke Skywaker and broken Daenerys Targaryen are far more interesting for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2019 16:31:27 GMT -5
I don't understand why people can't hate / love / be indifferent to the season in peace. No one is going to convince anyone of anything because there's no right argument. I myself am in a pretty weird position since I loved episodes 2, 4 and 5 (and 3 was a great spectacle), but I thought the finale dropped the ball. Dany is no hero but neither are Jon (who basically kills her to save Sansa and Arya), Tyrion or the Starks. The finale needed more of an edge to work imo. Less "Dany is evil" and more "everyone here is compromised to the point of no return". If that sounds too dark, I think it could have worked if you heightened the irony and the absurdity of it all. The small council scene and the montage of the not-so-heroic Starks rising to power could have used a more ominous ring to it. These people are not going to make the world a better place either.At least, that's my opinion on this. That this story is basically an anti-epic about disillusionment with power and a fundamental inescapable flaw about the human condition. I applaud that they went there with Daenerys but they should've gone further with the other characters for the point to be even more powerful. I also see a lot of people reducing the story to a banal "Power corrupts" message. A quick analysis of the story shows that not to be the case. Take arguably the 3 biggest atrocities of the story (not counting wars): the Red Wedding, the Sept Explosion and the King's Landing massacre. The first done by a minor lord out of resentment and pettiness; the second by a cornered Queen Mother at her most powerless; the last perpetrated by a well-meaning but utterly deluded savior figure in a moment of extreme weakness. If people think the message is "Power corrupts", well... Imo what the show is exploring is something far more interesting: the gulf between external motivations (for example, a moral desire to make the world a better place) and internal motivations that go ten times deeper. Dany frees slaves in Slaver's Bay so we declare her a "good person", but the show is arguing that this is a mistake. This is only the action, not the motive, and Dany is driven by an intimate, primal need to assert her superiority at all times. Her uniqueness is confirmed (in her mind) through her actions: she needs the actions to confirm it for her. It's not far off from the idea of manifest destiny and it seems like a safe bet that GRRM is using her to make a point about his own country and to express his disillusionment with its failed moral premise. But this also raises another interesting point about the reaction to the final season. If you think people can be 100% altruistic and selfless in their motives, if you think there's no divide between character's rhetoric and their real selves, you aren't going to accept GRRM's message no matter how he sells it (or how D&D sell it). And this is totally understandable. I reject the message of well-made movies or books all the time. Finally, I just want to say I think what the show's message is completely at odds with 2019 sensibilities. The hatred Season 8 incites is not explained by "lack of character development" or nonsensical plot points. Not after the atrocity that was the Qarth storyline from season 2, Dorne, parts of Season 7, etc. No, I think the show (flawed as it is!) has touched a nerve. We live in a culture that tells us we're special - not only does the show say that we're not special, it says we should be wary of people who proclaim their uniqueness and moral superiority to the world. And most people in 2019 are addicted to the concept of moral superiority, empowerment and most of all to the idea of not compromising when it comes to fighting a perceived evil. All of them concepts embodied by Daenerys Targaryen. Could the show have been better? Hell yes. But the ending was going to be detested no matter how it was presented. It's an affront to 2019 culture, written by a man whose vision of the world was shaped by the tragedy of the Vietnam War, the moral deterioration and hypocrisy of post-war US and the failures of Communist regimes proclaiming worldwide equality, and that is felt across the whole story. It was never going to be an epic about people finding their better selves and turning the world into "Paradise", which is what people want in 2019. Anyway those are basically my final thoughts. Good season, weak finale, but overall a thought-provoking show that tells us something about ourselves - in terms of what we accept and reject about the story. And it's going to go down as the epic story that defined the 2010s, even though that's maybe not what it is at all. Imo I think you really hit the nail on the head with your analysis. I have to come back to this tomorrow with a bit more time. But great post!
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Post by daeronthegood on Jun 8, 2019 17:18:49 GMT -5
Man this season was a mess and ruined a great show. for GOT to go out as a joke is sad af.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Jun 8, 2019 20:28:48 GMT -5
I agree. And that's why people like "Just Write" and the rest of YT completely missed the point of the story. This is not a story about idealists building a better world and changing social norms, not story about redepemtion even for the worst of us and for sure not a story that says that humanity can put aside their differences and live together. That was idea Jon had. But that's not what writers of the story think. Humanity won't come together, there are no saviors, no catharsis. Even in the end of the show we see seeds of future conflicts. And I agree that the story asks deeper questions about bind loyalty to leaders, about flaws od idealism and black and white perspective of the world. And that the enemy are not others, we are the enemies, humans are the biggest monsters and ruins of KL are that "better world" they promised us. And when we speak about execution and structure of the narrative Benioff and Weiss were consistent even in their flaws. This was never "character study" type of show. It was mostly plot driven and fast paced with a lot of spectacle. It's true, the show never really explored what it means for Jon to be Targaryan. But just like it never really explored what it means for Tyrion to kill his father, or for Cersei to lose her children, how it feels for Jon to be back, how Sansa deals with magical elements of the story that she never experienced before, we never saw internal struggle where Stannis decides to kill his child and so on. We got the same old writing style D&D gave us in the past. Nothing more. But nothing less. I'm still happy that D&D were brave enough to write a season like this, in current times of entertainment where shows and movies are there to make you feel good. And if they make you feel sad it also has to be in very safe and predictable way that won't challenge your worldview. Heroic death like Tony Stark had, that's what's only allowed. Almost heroic death for Walter White, that's what's considered the best TV ending ever. But broken Luke Skywaker and broken Daenerys Targaryen are far more interesting for me. I'm definitely glad we got the real ending. As for the bolded part, I really enjoyed that the real existential threat to mankind turned out to be, well... mankind. And imo they pulled it off, because Episode 5 was largely more terrifying than 3. The nuclear tone and imagery helped. Agree about the writing. Season 8 was never going to become an Ingmar Bergman movie about Dany facing her personal demons in a room. It might have been great to watch, but it was never going to happen. Dany's descent is relatively slow-paced if you compare it to say, Stannis', driven to killing his daughter by a snowstorm. Dany faced a lot more personal tragedies than that. In both cases, though, we're talking about a character's true nature being revealed, and not a transformation from A to B. Imo episodes 4-5-6 are not meant to be a character arc for Dany. At least we can all agree Episode 2 was amazing, showing the characters at their best in a completely believable way. Probably the last time there was peace in the fandom ...
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Post by nikma on Jun 9, 2019 4:00:42 GMT -5
Daenerys being in room full of people and feeling she doesn't belong there was really relatable, the most I ever felt while watching this show.
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Post by laurya on Jun 9, 2019 9:41:34 GMT -5
Finally, I just want to say I think what the show's message is completely at odds with 2019 sensibilities. The hatred Season 8 incites is not explained by "lack of character development" or nonsensical plot points. Not after the atrocity that was the Qarth storyline from season 2, Dorne, parts of Season 7, etc. No, I think the show (flawed as it is!) has touched a nerve. We live in a culture that tells us we're special - not only does the show say that we're not special, it says we should be wary of people who proclaim their uniqueness and moral superiority to the world. And most people in 2019 are addicted to the concept of moral superiority, empowerment and most of all to the idea of not compromising when it comes to fighting a perceived evil. All of them concepts embodied by Daenerys Targaryen. Could the show have been better? Hell yes. But the ending was going to be detested no matter how it was presented. I agree with everything you say, but I want to focus on this point. Many people understand character development wrong imo. Character development doesn't necessarily mean everyone's going to better himself. Game of Thrones has very few of them, Theon and the Hound are the only examples I can think of now. This also means people are becoming better persons like Jaime, but still fall back into old habits and bad personality traits. For Jaime this means going back to Cersei. Could there have be other outcomes? Sure he could live happily ever after with Brienne or go to King's Landing and kill Cersei (which would've been the worse outcome imho). The bad personality traits in Daenerys were always there. She had always a thing for cruelty and as you said, being unable to compromise. I believe there is almost no point in argueing any more because people are pretty set on the standpoint on this, which is totally fine. But in my opinion the finale encompassed Dany very well as a character. We see her triumphant, cruel and power hungry self when she gives her speech to her army. But we also see her emotional, idealistic and love craving side when she is walking up to the Iron Throne and talking with Jon. For me, Daenerys is both sides of the coin, good and bad, Fire and Blood.
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Post by nikma on Jun 9, 2019 10:17:15 GMT -5
Jaime's story was never about good man being manipulated by an evil women that he has to kill and become a better person. That was clear after that rape scene in S4 but fans refused to see.
Ad Tyrion said, he always knew what she was and he loved her anyway.
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Post by Diablotion on Jun 9, 2019 11:04:30 GMT -5
Jaime's story was never about good man being manipulated by an evil women that he has to kill and become a better person. That was clear after that rape scene in S4 but fans refused to see. Ad Tyrion said, he always knew what she was and he loved her anyway. The tragic part is, if I remember correctly, the writers didn't intend that scene to be a rape scene.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2019 11:49:31 GMT -5
Jaime's story was never about good man being manipulated by an evil women that he has to kill and become a better person. That was clear after that rape scene in S4 but fans refused to see. Ad Tyrion said, he always knew what she was and he loved her anyway. The tragic part is, if I remember correctly, the writers didn't intend that scene to be a rape scene. You’re correct. That’s around the time when the “Larry and Carol” stuff started...
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Post by konradsmith on Jun 9, 2019 11:59:54 GMT -5
Jaime's story was never about good man being manipulated by an evil women that he has to kill and become a better person. That was clear after that rape scene in S4 but fans refused to see. Ad Tyrion said, he always knew what she was and he loved her anyway. The tragic part is, if I remember correctly, the writers didn't intend that scene to be a rape scene. D and D said it was actually. But that was post-backlash IIRC so it may have just been damage control because there was quite the furor over that bit. The ominous music during the scene though would imply that they knew it was. The scene's director Alex Graves and Lena and NCW were the ones who were most adamant about it not being one initially though. Which again could have just been them keeping to the company line or it could be some kind of miscommunication or a generational thing.
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Post by nikma on Jun 9, 2019 12:10:38 GMT -5
This was interesting thing they had to say about that 2 years ago in their interview for Time.
WEISS: The funny thing about the other scene you mentioned is, that was the fourth season. We’d definitely sent that episode out, we’d sent out the first three or the first four, wide, to critics. That season, I believe, as far as sending it out to critics, was the best-received we’d had. People really enjoyed those three episodes they got, which included this scene! And I think we went back after the fact, after people got upset about the scene, went back and looke d— we had stopped by that point reading the internet about the show, which is its own separate question. It felt like an unhealthy thing to be doing so we quit around season 2.
And you stuck to that?
WEISS: Definitely. But we — for this, we went back and spot-checked this thing, to see if anybody who had reviewed the show so positively and seen this scene had commented upon it when they were watching it individually and reacting to it as an individual, and not one of them had, to my recollection. And then, some of the people who had come back and seemed to be somewhat outraged about this scene were outraged about a scene that they had already seen! And not been outraged by when they saw it. I just think it’s a byproduct, not specific to our show, it’s a byproduct of the way people talk about culture now. And the immediate interconnection of anybody who’s talking about a thing that happens at the same time — it changes the nature of the conversation.
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Post by daeronthegood on Jun 9, 2019 16:07:58 GMT -5
Finally, I just want to say I think what the show's message is completely at odds with 2019 sensibilities. The hatred Season 8 incites is not explained by "lack of character development" or nonsensical plot points. Not after the atrocity that was the Qarth storyline from season 2, Dorne, parts of Season 7, etc. No, I think the show (flawed as it is!) has touched a nerve. We live in a culture that tells us we're special - not only does the show say that we're not special, it says we should be wary of people who proclaim their uniqueness and moral superiority to the world. And most people in 2019 are addicted to the concept of moral superiority, empowerment and most of all to the idea of not compromising when it comes to fighting a perceived evil.All of them concepts embodied by Daenerys Targaryen. Could the show have been better? Hell yes. But the ending was going to be detested no matter how it was presented. It's an affront to 2019 culture, written by a man whose vision of the world was shaped by the tragedy of the Vietnam War, the moral deterioration and hypocrisy of post-war US and the failures of Communist regimes proclaiming worldwide equality, and that is felt across the whole story. It was never going to be an epic about people finding their better selves and turning the world into "Paradise", which is what people want in 2019. Anyway those are basically my final thoughts. Good season, weak finale, but overall a thought-provoking show that tells us something about ourselves - in terms of what we accept and reject about the story. And it's going to go down as the epic story that defined the 2010s, even though that's maybe not what it is at all. Dany's clearest moral position in the story was anti-slavery. Tell me how do you compromise with the institution of slavery? That's some really dark stuff.
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Post by daeronthegood on Jun 9, 2019 16:20:15 GMT -5
The tragic part is, if I remember correctly, the writers didn't intend that scene to be a rape scene. You’re correct. That’s around the time when the “Larry and Carol” stuff started... Their response was one of surprise that most people saw it for what it was, a rape. It was really disturbing, and I put my feelings aside because, tbh I was enjoying the story. Now I look back and realize that sort of blind misogyny was a feature and not a bug.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2019 17:09:55 GMT -5
Finally, I just want to say I think what the show's message is completely at odds with 2019 sensibilities. The hatred Season 8 incites is not explained by "lack of character development" or nonsensical plot points. Not after the atrocity that was the Qarth storyline from season 2, Dorne, parts of Season 7, etc. No, I think the show (flawed as it is!) has touched a nerve. We live in a culture that tells us we're special - not only does the show say that we're not special, it says we should be wary of people who proclaim their uniqueness and moral superiority to the world. And most people in 2019 are addicted to the concept of moral superiority, empowerment and most of all to the idea of not compromising when it comes to fighting a perceived evil.All of them concepts embodied by Daenerys Targaryen. Could the show have been better? Hell yes. But the ending was going to be detested no matter how it was presented. It's an affront to 2019 culture, written by a man whose vision of the world was shaped by the tragedy of the Vietnam War, the moral deterioration and hypocrisy of post-war US and the failures of Communist regimes proclaiming worldwide equality, and that is felt across the whole story. It was never going to be an epic about people finding their better selves and turning the world into "Paradise", which is what people want in 2019. Anyway those are basically my final thoughts. Good season, weak finale, but overall a thought-provoking show that tells us something about ourselves - in terms of what we accept and reject about the story. And it's going to go down as the epic story that defined the 2010s, even though that's maybe not what it is at all. Dany's clearest moral position in the story was anti-slavery. Tell me how do you compromise with the institution of slavery? That's some really dark stuff. If you read ADwD, you will see that Dany has to wrestle with compromise on more than just slavery.
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