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Post by sercreighton on Aug 30, 2017 9:12:46 GMT -5
No no no. "Bend the knee"
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Lils
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Post by Lils on Aug 30, 2017 9:15:31 GMT -5
You both make good points. I was thinking about this further and there is clearly a difference between how the telegraph Dany getting pregnant and how they are going about this. With Dany's oregnancy there were a lot of definitive statements, the dragons are the only children I'll ever have, vs.. the more suggestive statement of it just takes one arrow to they could shoot at you, etc. They are stating the obvious but it could be that she's injured a top Drogon, finds out she's pregnant and decides not to fly again until the baby is born. She got her a taste at her and her dragons mortality with Viserion's death. This might be another. I just think about it in the terms of a pre credits recap. Like could I hear it there. Pick whichever quote you want. Recap "you could get shot with an arrow" Then she gets Kennedyed? When I hear them say it I just can't hear it in a recap. They just sound like typical warnings that any character might hear. I also watched they house of the Undying scene again. The turning away from the throne seems right. Though I am surprised she does not recall it when Jon asks her for help or when she is at the wall. Which is like hello look familiar? So so turns away from the throne and heads toward her king with her baby. On a side note her Jason were really good in that scene and I forgot how much she loved Drogo. Anyway that all seems right. She says something that I am curious about or doesn't say really. "You died before I..." Now dreams are mentioned a lot. As in a Dream of spring maybe? Drogo was actually her Undead King for a moment. And of course Jon came back as well. Dany mentions the Prophecy that Miri said. The Prophecy was an answer to a question. When will he return to me? Jon came back from the north after they thought he died, he always comes back. So that seems right or to paraphrase Drogo, I told Death to go fuck himself. Now I think Jon fits in there, but I still think there is a creepy parallel between him and the Night King. Drogo was not the only King we saw holding a baby north of the wall. Jon on the Rock is actually waiting for Dany. Something tells me the Night King is as well but in a bad way, like he makes Littlefingers Stark girl creepy look like a harmless teenage crush. There has got to be a reason the Night King is back. I would also note that I don't know if they can kill him. Maybe, but it's pretty clear he left last time but was not destroyed. What made him leave and end the long night? What brought him back? so to sum up, Arrow = No, and HotU = Possibly all of it happened but there could be more. No baby yet after all. You know with all the talk of arrows I surprised Jon is not insisting she wear armor. Who knows maybe it will be a gift. In the books she does think about armor for the future when the dragons are big enough to ride. She actually mentions she has some beautiful bronze armor that was a gift but that she would prefer steel. I would lose my shit if they put her in black and red armor. Or maybe the show is setting up the armor Gendry will make for her. It's crazy how much the HOTU applies to this season. Snowing in the throne room meaning Winter in King's Landing, perhaps foreshadowing how close the War for the Dawn will come. Turning away from the throne to help fight against the WWs, specifically going north of the Wall. Drogo telling her "maybe I told death to go fuck itself", technically, Jon has done that (not by choice, of course). Dany also pulling away from them shows that she is putting the past behind her for something else. I wasn't fond of the HOTU visions when I first saw them because I loved the book's, but after seeing it come true with Season 7, I absolutely love it. The simple visions turned out not to be so simple.
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moiaf
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Post by moiaf on Aug 30, 2017 9:39:53 GMT -5
Here is the analysis of the soundtrack for the season 7 finale. Excellent as always. Next week he'll analyze the evolution of Jon and Dany's theme.
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milyagaryen
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Post by milyagaryen on Aug 30, 2017 9:54:37 GMT -5
So, I saw someone on tumblr mention that in the dragonpit scene, we see Jon holding a baby dragon skull, which he then hands to Daenerys, symbolising our promised Jonerys baby. Perhaps more worryingly though, she then hands it back to Jon, symbolising...what? Leaving the baby behind? Of course this interaction takes place while they are having the discussion about the end of the Targaryens and her ability to have children, so I feel like there is definitely some intentional symbolism going on. Thoughts?
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Envie
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Post by Envie on Aug 30, 2017 9:59:23 GMT -5
Leaving the baby behind? I just read a variation of this one! But their twist on it was the symbolism that the baby would be Jon's to raise because Daenerys will die.
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Post by milyagaryen on Aug 30, 2017 10:01:14 GMT -5
Leaving the baby behind? I just read a variation of this one! But their twist on it was the symbolism that the baby would be Jon's to raise because Daenerys will die. Yeah, that was what I meant by leaving the baby behind, I just couldn't bring myself to write it!!
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milyagaryen
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Post by milyagaryen on Aug 30, 2017 10:07:25 GMT -5
I just read a variation of this one! But their twist on it was the symbolism that the baby would be Jon's to raise because Daenerys will die. Yeah, that was what I meant by leaving the baby behind, I just couldn't bring myself to write it!! Ok, I have thought it through a bit more. My alternative interpretation is that this is basically Jon offering a child to Daenerys. She then essentially rejects his offer by handing it back to him, because she doesn't think it's an option. But Jon keeps holding on to the baby dragon and then proceeds to question her belief about why she can't have children...and as we know he ends up propositioning her literally, not just symbolically, so maybe this scene is just a prelude to that rather than symbolic of the endgame. Or maybe I am just thinking too hard about this generally...
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Post by Envie on Aug 30, 2017 10:09:36 GMT -5
Yeah, that was what I meant by leaving the baby behind, I just couldn't bring myself to write it!! Well, I can see why fans might like/hate this idea as it would bring the whole thing full circle where Jon was raised by Ned so that's definitely some bittersweet irony. But the difference this time around being Jon's baby will know who his/her Mother was and how heroic and wonderful she was and saved them. I'm one of those who is trying to keep an open mind on the theories that one or both of them dies, or neither. I think the 'arrow' theory is also at least a valid concern though I don't like the idea of Daenerys dying at all, much less the same way Ygritte did. That seems gratuitously over the top.
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Lils
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Post by Lils on Aug 30, 2017 10:13:36 GMT -5
Yeah, that was what I meant by leaving the baby behind, I just couldn't bring myself to write it!! Ok, I have thought it through a bit more. My alternative interpretation is that this is basically Jon offering a child to Daenerys. She then essentially rejects his offer by handing it back to him, because she doesn't think it's an option. But Jon keeps holding on to the baby dragon and then proceeds to question her belief about why she can't have children...and as we know he ends up propositioning her literally, not just symbolically, so maybe this scene is just a prelude to that rather than symbolic of the endgame. Or maybe I am just thinking too hard about this generally... I think you guys are reading too much into it. I think it was mainly displaying how small the dragons became and how House Targaryen was nearly destroyed, like the dragons. But the irony is that there are two members of the House still there and they will have a child. I don't think it has anything to do with the future beyond a baby.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 10:16:52 GMT -5
Ngl that is pretty worrying...
There's some sharp people out there to even pick up on that. It probably never would have occurred to me no matter how many times I watched that scene.
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moiaf
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Post by moiaf on Aug 30, 2017 10:21:49 GMT -5
Yeah, that was what I meant by leaving the baby behind, I just couldn't bring myself to write it!! Ok, I have thought it through a bit more. My alternative interpretation is that this is basically Jon offering a child to Daenerys. She then essentially rejects his offer by handing it back to him, because she doesn't think it's an option. But Jon keeps holding on to the baby dragon and then proceeds to question her belief about why she can't have children...and as we know he ends up propositioning her literally, not just symbolically, so maybe this scene is just a prelude to that rather than symbolic of the endgame. Or maybe I am just thinking too hard about this generally... I have to watch the scene again and see what they are talking about while this is going on. But this seems are more apt interpretation given that they hadn't even had sex yet. His first proposition might have been rejected given Dany's belief in being barren. But his second clearly was not.
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Post by Envie on Aug 30, 2017 10:23:39 GMT -5
Ok, I have thought it through a bit more. My alternative interpretation is that this is basically Jon offering a child to Daenerys. She then essentially rejects his offer by handing it back to him, because she doesn't think it's an option. But Jon keeps holding on to the baby dragon and then proceeds to question her belief about why she can't have children...and as we know he ends up propositioning her literally, not just symbolically, so maybe this scene is just a prelude to that rather than symbolic of the endgame. Or maybe I am just thinking too hard about this generally... I think you guys are reading too much into it. I think it was mainly displaying how small the dragons became and how House Targaryen was nearly destroyed, like the dragons. But the irony is that there are two members of the House still there and they will have a child. I don't think it has anything to do with the future beyond a baby. Well the immediate post-season tin-foil theory phase has begun, and that happens every single season. We at least have to examine the speculations of opposite theories and consider them. Opponents might say all that talk about babies is wrong altogether and we're reading too much into it. I personally wasn't immediately convinced it meant she would be pregnant but I've since come around to the idea. I'm a little slower to warm up on the shipping stuff because for me it was primarily R+L=J that dragged me into being a Targaryen supporter in the first place. People find it odd I don't gush all over Daenerys more, but as much as I enjoyed her story in the books and on the show, I never found her to be a stronger protagonist than Jon Snow which is the real irony since they were destined to come together and were parallels of one another. As my avatar suggests, I am more about the merger of the two houses than I am the romance. I *do* love the idea of the Targaryen Dynasty being rebuilt through offspring to Jon and Daenerys and I now hope that does happen. But something that wonderful has to come at a price, we know it in our hearts, this isn't going to be a perfect fairytale ending. If there's a child to be born then it almost makes me lean more towards the death of one or both of them and since I've previously said their destinies are so intertwined ... well that just sets up contradiction to what I agreed with before that it doesn't make a lot of sense to go this far into their story for so long just to kill them both off. I just honestly don't know. And that's a good thing. I have something to either look forward to or dread! All of the 'prediction' polls and discussions starting up, I am happy to talk about a hundred other plots but I refuse to make predictions on whether Jon and Daenerys survive, die together or one of them dies. I just can't do it!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 10:24:47 GMT -5
Read articles at Telegraph, Independent and others and all of them are disliking love scene and using cast interviews of gaging and retching. Suprisingly, even some of faithful fans of Dany and Jon dislike it but for a different reasons. I hoped for a positive reaction but it seems like the opposte, Either disgruntled fans or plainly hate on it.
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milyagaryen
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Post by milyagaryen on Aug 30, 2017 10:25:09 GMT -5
Yeah, I probably am reading too much into it, but I guess we are just working with what we have! I pretty much vary from hour to hour as to what I think is going to be the endgame for Jon and Daenerys. My feeling is that there is going to be some tragedy there unfortunately, I do struggle to see a suitably powerful ending where they both survive...but you never know. I generally lean towards Jon being the one to go (mainly because of his resurrection), but it's definitely possible it could be Dany instead. It just makes me sad though .
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Post by moiaf on Aug 30, 2017 10:29:21 GMT -5
Ok, I have thought it through a bit more. My alternative interpretation is that this is basically Jon offering a child to Daenerys. She then essentially rejects his offer by handing it back to him, because she doesn't think it's an option. But Jon keeps holding on to the baby dragon and then proceeds to question her belief about why she can't have children...and as we know he ends up propositioning her literally, not just symbolically, so maybe this scene is just a prelude to that rather than symbolic of the endgame. Or maybe I am just thinking too hard about this generally... I have to watch the scene again and see what they are talking about while this is going on. But this seems are more apt interpretation given that they hadn't even had sex yet. His first proposition might have been rejected given Dany's belief in being barren. But his second clearly was not. If Jon questions the validity of MMD's claim after Dany hands the skull back to him your interpretation would make even more sense. Because Dany has had time to think, and realize she might be able to have a future.
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