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Post by moiaf on Aug 18, 2016 19:31:07 GMT -5
Having Rhaegar and Lyanna married doesn't really make Jon legitimate as Rhaegar was already married and polygamy is almost certainly illegal in Westeros. I could see Bran thinking that and telling Jon, but Jon would know the truth of the law and how people would view him. Agreed. We've already seen it doesn't really matter anyway. Jon being named KitN over Sansa proved that. Absolutely, Jon earned that for being who he was not because of his last name. Also, I just think that this news is going to devastate him, he will find no happiness in the news of his biological parents are. He might come to terms with it eventually but I can't see him dealing with the news well at all.
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Post by konradsmith on Aug 18, 2016 19:32:52 GMT -5
And I wasn't saying that because of who is the rightful ruler, I was saying it because I think Jon being a bastard is an important story-long struggle for him when it comes to his identity. Even if he was a bastard he found pried in being Ned' Stark's bastard but now he's not even that. Bran might tell Jon about the marriage ceremony Rhaegar and Lyanna but I doubt Jon would find any solace in that.I don't think he's meant to. Or that he'd feel much better in knowing it. I think he'd much rather be Ned's son than not. Him being raised a bastard will still leave him with the mentality he grew up with and his bitterness, whatever he really is. And if he were ever to ascend higher in the world I don't think he'd enjoy that much either. But I think that's key to the dramatic irony of his arc. It is all a little too Arthurian and on-the-nose but GrrM's twist on the matter is Jon's reluctance.
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Post by mandzipop on Aug 18, 2016 20:07:02 GMT -5
Why I think there is a possibility that Jon could be declared legit is because of the irony. All his life he's wanted to be trueborn. He finally gets his wish and even if it was for love, he'd give up being a trueborn of Rhaegar and Lyanna anyday to be a bastard of Ned's. That irony doesn't work if he is Rhaegar's bastard.
We have to be careful in considering anything from the world book as canon. It is supposed to have historical inaccuracies, especially as it was meant to be biased towards anything to do with Robert.
There is also another issue, which has only just crossed my Drambuie fuddled mind. Does the Faith of the Seven believe in TPTWP, Azor Ahai, The Last Hero etc...? There is no mention of Rhaegar's religious beliefs.
The show has set a precedent in relation to marriage annulments. Basically it is possible to marry again without an annulment under certain circumstances. It was done under two different religions.
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Post by moiaf on Aug 18, 2016 20:23:33 GMT -5
Why I think there is a possibility that Jon could be declared legit is because of the irony. All his life he's wanted to be trueborn. He finally gets his wish and even if it was for love, he'd give up being a trueborn of Rhaegar and Lyanna anyday to be a bastard of Ned's. That irony doesn't work if he is Rhaegar's bastard. We have to be careful in considering anything from the world book as canon. It is supposed to have historical inaccuracies, especially as it was meant to be biased towards anything to do with Robert. There is also another issue, which has only just crossed my Drambuie fuddled mind. Does the Faith of the Seven believe in TPTWP, Azor Ahai, The Last Hero etc...? There is no mention of Rhaegar's religious beliefs. The show has set a precedent in relation to marriage annulments. Basically it is possible to marry again without an annulment under certain circumstances. It was done under two different religions. Targaryens are followers of the Seven, have been so since Jaehesrys. I believe they did this in order to keep peace after the Faith Millitant rise. Regarding annulments, Sansa and Tyrion never consumables their marriage. Additionally, if Rhaegar was to annulled his marriage to Elia he would delegitimized his children with her. And he thought his son Argon was the Prince that was Promised. I would think the irony would be just as great if Jon was still a bastard but instead of being a Stark badtard as he has always believe he would be a Targaryen one. Regardless, I doubt Jon would ever call himself a Targaryen, he will always be a Snow.
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Post by Envie on Aug 18, 2016 20:39:35 GMT -5
I sort of like the ironic theory that he learns he wasn't actually a bastard after all but not being Ned's son makes it not even worth it to him. He'd rather be Ned's bastard like moiaf suggests. I feel like Jon's entire desire to be a Stark is by far the biggest thing he's always struggled with his whole life. Finding out he's a Targaryen by name wouldn't help and would make him feel even further from his Stark heritage is my thought on that. But as for rulership rights, yeah it clearly does not matter now that they named him KitN anyways.
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Post by moiaf on Aug 18, 2016 20:52:04 GMT -5
Just a quick note, the World Book is certainly littered with errors and inaccuracies but Elio did confirm that what the Maester has written regarding King Aerys naming Viserys heir was true as far as the citadel was concerned. Also, I don't know why they would lie about that because it just makes the assassination of Rhaegar's children even worse because the children had been skipped over in the line of succession.
Also, at least as far as th books are concerned, the introduction of Aegon makes it incredibly hard for Jon to prove his parentage much less his legitimacy. Who's going to believe him once Aegon is found to be fake? Aegon who looked Targaryen while Jon looks very much a Stark. Theyl'll see him as yet another pretender.
Also, I know the show has its lapses in logic so they can certainly find a way to make Jon's legitimacy happen and have, at least the Northeners, accept it. It wouldn't be the first time they bend reality.
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Post by konradsmith on Aug 18, 2016 21:04:07 GMT -5
I don't this Jon will press his claim at all. It's just that he'll be the only candidate left by the end of the show/series. Now I'm sounding like some Jon-fan. Which I assure y'all that, after his banishment of the kindly Melisandre, I certainly am not.
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Post by mandzipop on Aug 18, 2016 21:12:13 GMT -5
Why I think there is a possibility that Jon could be declared legit is because of the irony. All his life he's wanted to be trueborn. He finally gets his wish and even if it was for love, he'd give up being a trueborn of Rhaegar and Lyanna anyday to be a bastard of Ned's. That irony doesn't work if he is Rhaegar's bastard. We have to be careful in considering anything from the world book as canon. It is supposed to have historical inaccuracies, especially as it was meant to be biased towards anything to do with Robert. There is also another issue, which has only just crossed my Drambuie fuddled mind. Does the Faith of the Seven believe in TPTWP, Azor Ahai, The Last Hero etc...? There is no mention of Rhaegar's religious beliefs. The show has set a precedent in relation to marriage annulments. Basically it is possible to marry again without an annulment under certain circumstances. It was done under two different religions. Targaryens are followers of the Seven, have been so since Jaehesrys. I believe they did this in order to keep peace after the Faith Millitant rise. Regarding annulments, Sansa and Tyrion never consumables their marriage. Additionally, if Rhaegar was to annulled his marriage to Elia he would delegitimized his children with her. And he thought his son Argon was the Prince that was Promised. I would think the irony would be just as great if Jon was still a bastard but instead of being a Stark badtard as he has always believe he would be a Targaryen one. Regardless, I doubt Jon would ever call himself a Targaryen, he will always be a Snow. What we don't know is what faith Rhaegar followed. My main point is that in the books, Sansa is still married to Tyrion, but in the show she wasn't. The show could quite easily pull out of the hat multiple reasons why any marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna would be valid. I also see that if he was legit it would cause problems. If he were Rhaegar's bastard, I think the northern lords would overlook it and still accept him as a Stark and still be KitN. If he's legit, they won't like it and it will cause problems for Jon. Until we get the reveal either way, all is pure speculation for the time being. Edit: It sounds like we are agreeing in a fashion. If the show wants to do it, the show will find a way.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 21:24:40 GMT -5
I don't this Jon will press his claim at all. It's just that he'll be the only candidate left by the end of the show/series. Now I'm sounding like some Jon-fan. Which I assure y'all that, after his banishment of the kindly Melisandre, I certainly am not. You're too harsh on Jon. He could have executed her after all. She will grace our screens again. Thanks to Jon Snow.
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Post by mattpeto on Aug 18, 2016 22:41:38 GMT -5
Agreed. We've already seen it doesn't really matter anyway. Jon being named KitN over Sansa proved that. Absolutely, Jon earned that for being who he was not because of his last name. Also, I just think that this news is going to devastate him, he will find no happiness in the news of his biological parents are. He might come to terms with it eventually but I can't see him dealing with the news well at all. Maybe, maybe not. Either way, Ned raised Jon and was a father to him anyway. There's also a possibility he will embrace being Lyanna's son; it surely beats almost every other theory he had (mainly a random whore). For all their nobility that the Starks have, they put their family first even if the consequences have a dishonorable trait. Ned claiming Jon as an adulteress mirrors Ned claiming Joffrey as the rightful heir to protect Sansa/Arya at Baelor. Echo Brandon and Rickard at the hands of the Mad King. It wasn't honor on the line but Jon rushing in to attempt to save Rickon was a Stark move-putting family first. Jon's life was saved for Ned's lie. Hopefully he'll get that.
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Post by konradsmith on Aug 18, 2016 22:58:51 GMT -5
I don't this Jon will press his claim at all. It's just that he'll be the only candidate left by the end of the show/series. Now I'm sounding like some Jon-fan. Which I assure y'all that, after his banishment of the kindly Melisandre, I certainly am not. You're too harsh on Jon. He could have executed her after all. She will grace our screens again. Thanks to Jon Snow. Yeah but he sunk the One True Ship, Melijondre. He should've burnt Davos at the stake for meddling in his affairs and married Mel on the spot.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 23:00:43 GMT -5
You're too harsh on Jon. He could have executed her after all. She will grace our screens again. Thanks to Jon Snow. Yeah but he sunk the One True Ship, Melijondre. He should've burnt Davos at the stake for meddling in his affairs and married Mel on the spot.
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Post by konradsmith on Aug 18, 2016 23:08:15 GMT -5
Yeah but he sunk the One True Ship, Melijondre. He should've burnt Davos at the stake for meddling in his affairs and married Mel on the spot. Anything short of that One True Option is cowardice of the worst kind. He should return Longclaw to Lady Mormont and assume latrine pit command back at Castle Black.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Aug 18, 2016 23:14:12 GMT -5
You're too harsh on Jon. He could have executed her after all. She will grace our screens again. Thanks to Jon Snow. Yeah but he sunk the One True Ship, Melijondre. He should've burnt Davos at the stake for meddling in his affairs and married Mel on the spot. It really was a huge missed opportunity.
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Post by konradsmith on Aug 18, 2016 23:19:56 GMT -5
Yeah but he sunk the One True Ship, Melijondre. He should've burnt Davos at the stake for meddling in his affairs and married Mel on the spot. It really was a huge missed opportunity. Well Mel's just gotta move on to bigger and better things now. Leave Snow in the rearview and find someone who doesn't mind petty infractions like human sacrifice. She should've said, "Jeez, Jon do you EVEN utilitarianism?" And then asked if her being banished meant he wanted her to unressurect him too. I won't forgive that ungrateful weenie for at least a few more weeks.
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