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Post by nikma on Aug 21, 2017 13:53:13 GMT -5
I think everything this season makes sense, Tyrion's mistakes to protect Jaime, Varys not knowing enough, this mission,.. They just didn't do enough at some places to explain that.
That's why some people are telling just burn the Red Keep. Well Tyrion would NEVER burn Jaime alive.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 21, 2017 14:03:16 GMT -5
Let me try to be a little clearer. Suicide missions make sense when the other options are worse. While they acknowledged the probably hopelessness of the mission -- which is good -- they never really tried to explain why the other options were worse. And to be clear, I do not blame the writers of the episode -- they wrote what they were told to write. The showrunners determine the outline of the plot -- the showrunners are the ones I have a gripe with. The viewers needed to believe that Jon and Dany and the other folks had come to the conclusion that the only chance to beat the WW would be to convince Cersei -- and without her all would be lost with the WW so it was worth any risk to get her proof. They never really tried to make that case -- probably because that case is essentially not possible to make. How can Jon likely dying -- risking losing the cooperation of the North -- justify a speculative possibility of convincing Cersei. If they had tried to make this case -- even if I was not completely convinced -- maybe it would have bothered me less. But the justification for the mission was so thin and the potential loss to the greater cause so great that I just could not get outside of my head to enjoy the action. I did voice criticism as to why I thought that last week's episode didn't set this one up well, but I think the fact that they need to convince Cersei and by extension the south to stand a chance was still heavily implied. Do I wish they had spent more time with it last week? Sure. But saying that the entire explanation doesn't make sense is a bit of an exaggeration if you ask me. It was definitely not enough to ruin 706 for me. Because the explanation still works, albeit being a bit underdeveloped in the execution. But 706 retroactively elevated 705 for me with all the very strong themes I mentioned. I'm sure the same will happen with 707 when we see the impact the plan will have on the story, Cersei and by extension the south. Also, I'm confused at you talking about the writers and the showrunners as if they were separate people. Benioff and Weiss are both the writers of the episode and the showrunners at the same time. Or did you mean Dave Hill for 705? Because then I'd argue the opposite of you. I think D&D's plan made a lot of sense (as explained in the behind the episode), but Hill's writing was weak. His scene needed to be more elaborate. I am skeptical that they could have made it plausible that getting the South on their side was so critical at this point -- once the WW are over the Wall, the South will learn the truth pretty soon thereafter. So the problem in my view is not that they did not spend enough time on the issue -- spending more time likely would have just exposed the weakness in the theory that the risk of the mission was justified by the overwhelming need to convince the South. So moving quickly over the issue might have been the best option from a writing point of view. When I distinguish between writers and showrunners (even if D&D serve in both capacities for a particular episode), the point I am trying to make is that the showrunners have a particular role to play and the writers have a different one. If the dialogue is "flat" or "corney" or "trite" -- then I blame the writers. If the entire structure of the characters' motivations and actions are absurd and preposterous -- I blame the showrunners. The showrunners tell the writers what needs to happen in the episode and why the characters are doing what they are doing. I assume the writers can discuss alternative with D&D, but the basic essence of what is going to happen in the episode and why has been determined by the showrunners before the writers get the assignment (of course, when D&D are writing an episode, no need to consult but the point is the same regarding the separate roles). So in that context, I have no real complaints about how D&D wrote this past episode. Given what they had to work with in terms of how the plot needed to move (based on their prior plotting out of the season in their capacity as showrunners), they did a serviceable job. On the other hand, in their capacity as showrunners, I have an issue. I can forgive them because I see how these events needed to happen to set up later developments for the series. I get that -- and I accept it. Nevertheless, my enjoyment of the episode -- as much as I tried not to be bother by the absurdity of the mission -- was affected while watching by my inability to rationalize any plausible explanation for how they could have decided that going on a wight hunt was a good idea.
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Post by Envie on Aug 21, 2017 14:12:13 GMT -5
Death may always prevail -- but risking almost certain death needs a better rationale than the one that the showrunners provided here. And again, I am not critical because I have a need for logical behavior by the characters at all times -- rather I am critical because I really did not enjoy the episode while watching it primarily because the absurdity and apparent pointlessness of what they were doing just kept creeping into the front of my brain. A long time ago, the specific details of Season 7 were leaked on reddit and no one wanted to believe they were legit for the very reasons you have listed here. Why would Jon and his loyal men go north of the wall to get a wight and bring it to Cersei? Why do they need to prove anything to her at all? But over time, and many conversations with good friends here, most of us came to understand this was the best way they could think of to bring the situation north of the wall to the people south of it so that plans could be made to band together in a way that's believable. This goes back to the political game really. There's only one reason to 'need' to do this -- to keep Cersei in the game as long as possible. A much "easier" story would have been Daenerys roasting Cersei alive inside the Red Keep and dispensed with this wight hunt altogether. Would Daenerys believe Jon Snow if SHE were the one sitting on the iron throne and not Cersei? Not likely... she barely believed him anyways and that was with Tyrion vouching for Jon's integrity. Sure, maybe Jon could have convinced Daenerys to fly north and see the army of the undead for herself from the safety of the skies - that could have worked. But it wouldn't have been an epic life or death confrontation as we got this way and it wouldn't have been as entertaining as seeing 7 heroes face down an army before them. It's the Impossible Odds factor that people love. It's why hero stories exist. Doing the impossible, or improbable. Does the motive for why it's done really matter? I mean, I hate to sound like a jerk here, but this meta argument has been done against Lord of the Rings too... "Why didn't Gandalf just call the Eagles and fly the ring to Mount Doom in the first place?!" ... It's the adventure of it. So whether you felt the motive was substantial enough or not doesn't really mean a lot in the bigger picture. They took a great risk because they thought it was a good idea. As Tormund said, smart people don't go north of the wall looking for the undead.
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Post by sercreighton on Aug 21, 2017 14:18:24 GMT -5
I don't think saying that the Wight Hunt was bound to fail and therefore this entire episode's writing was illogical is fair criticism, because that's the entire main theme of the episode itself. This episode is about the meaninglessness of the struggle that is life and that in the end death will win no matter what. Beric and Jon talk about this. Their mission is unlikely to succeed and they don't even know what they are doing half of the time, but both made the choice to fight the enemy that always wins: death. This theme becomes even clearer in Dany's scenes about heroes doing stupid things. The show actually acknowledges that Jon's mission is stupid. It's not supposed to come across as a good plan. That's the entire point! But what does Dany do? She goes anyway and tries to be the hero. Stupidly. Saying the plan is illogical and therefore it's bad writing is ignoring the underlying theme of Dany and Jon as existentialist heroes. It's a metaphor for how we desperately and stupidly try to hold on to life even though the vast meaninglessness of death will always win. That's not bad writing IMO. Not at all. Well said. The entire battle of the frozen lake. Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rage at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Though wise men at their end know dark is right, Because their words had forked no lightning they Do not go gentle into that good night. Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight, And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way, Do not go gentle into that good night. Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. And you, my father, there on the sad height, Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray. Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. "The enemy always wins, but you still gotta fight" "What do we say to the god of death? Not today" A stupid mission? I have been on plenty of stupid missions. Jon had no support, he is fighting to save the world, how do you convince the world to believe in something they don't. As Daenerys said, you have to see it to understand. He does not know how the enemy works, he knows they are undead, he knows Obsidian and Valyrian steel can kill them. He was looking for a straggler, not the army of the dead. He found a straggler, he didn't know the damn things have a hive mind. He knows now if you kill the Night King it will stop the army of the dead. In all the chaos on that rock there was a nobility in their desperation. They were desperate men on a desperate mission. Jon had no idea if Dany would show, he hoped she would show. And when she does and Jon is all like that's my girl fella's. I loved the themes of the episode.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 21, 2017 14:25:18 GMT -5
Death may always prevail -- but risking almost certain death needs a better rationale than the one that the showrunners provided here. And again, I am not critical because I have a need for logical behavior by the characters at all times -- rather I am critical because I really did not enjoy the episode while watching it primarily because the absurdity and apparent pointlessness of what they were doing just kept creeping into the front of my brain. A long time ago, the specific details of Season 7 were leaked on reddit and no one wanted to believe they were legit for the very reasons you have listed here. Why would Jon and his loyal men go north of the wall to get a wight and bring it to Cersei? Why do they need to prove anything to her at all? But over time, and many conversations with good friends here, most of us came to understand this was the best way they could think of to bring the situation north of the wall to the people south of it so that plans could be made to band together in a way that's believable. This goes back to the political game really. There's only one reason to 'need' to do this -- to keep Cersei in the game as long as possible. A much "easier" story would have been Daenerys roasting Cersei alive inside the Red Keep and dispensed with this wight hunt altogether. Would Daenerys believe Jon Snow if SHE were the one sitting on the iron throne and not Cersei? Not likely... she barely believed him anyways and that was with Tyrion vouching for Jon's integrity. Sure, maybe Jon could have convinced Daenerys to fly north and see the army of the undead for herself from the safety of the skies - that could have worked. But it wouldn't have been an epic life or death confrontation as we got this way and it wouldn't have been as entertaining as seeing 7 heroes face down an army before them. It's the Impossible Odds factor that people love. It's why hero stories exist. Doing the impossible, or improbable. Does the motive for why it's done really matter? I mean, I hate to sound like a jerk here, but this meta argument has been done against Lord of the Rings too... "Why didn't Gandalf just call the Eagles and fly the ring to Mount Doom in the first place?!" ... It's the adventure of it. So whether you felt the motive was substantial enough or not doesn't really mean a lot in the bigger picture. They took a great risk because they thought it was a good idea. As Tormund said, smart people don't go north of the wall looking for the undead. You might be surprised to find out that I agree with what you have written here. I always try to just be in the moment and enjoy the episode and not analyze the logic too deeply as long as the plot itself it enjoyable. For whatever reason, here I could not do it. And I had read the leaks and spoilers so I knew what was coming before the episode aired and was not expecting to have this reaction -- I actually was expecting to like the episode a lot. It was when they were walking through the snow and admitting how likely hopeless the mission was that my brain just could not get away from how Jon could never have really thought this plan made sense at all -- basically because he was at Hardhome and saw the WW capabilities. Anyone who was at Hardhome would not think that this mission was a long shot -- rather they would think that this mission is like jumping into an erupting volcano -- certain death (and I am not complaining about the implausible rescue -- I sort-of liked that part and can go with any logical flaws in how they were saved and how they "accomplished" their mission). As I think more about it, maybe there was one thing that D&D, in their capacity as writers and not showrunners, could have done to improve this aspect of the episode. They could have given them a plan for how to get a wight. I don't think they ever really discussed how they were going to pick off just one wight from many without drawing the attention of the WW and getting swarmed. Jon saw how the WW control the wights at Hardhome and how they swarm. If Jon had said something about some strategy to try to isolate one wight and avoid the attention of the WW then maybe I could have been drawn in better. But again, I think the reason they did not explore that angle is because it would have shown how pointless the mission was -- because there was no plausible way to isolate one wight and avoid the attention of the WW. So then it goes back on D&D as showrunners and not as writers.
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Post by Envie on Aug 21, 2017 14:40:15 GMT -5
I don't think they ever really discussed how they were going to pick off just one wight from many without drawing the attention of the WW and getting swarmed. Jon saw how the WW control the wights at Hardhome and how they swarm. If Jon had said something about some strategy to try to isolate one wight and avoid the attention of the WW then maybe I could have been drawn in better. But again, I think the reason they did not explore that angle is because it would have shown how pointless the mission was -- because there was no plausible way to isolate one wight and avoid the attention of the WW. You've actually touched on something I did find a little odd. So we got a huge clue in this sequence about the White Walkers (and this may be another Season 8 reason they wanted to do this scene the way they did) ... because we watched Jon kill a solo White Walker and the 'minions' he had with him all crumbled around him ... except for one. That was a bit too convenient in my mind, but again, I'm more than willing to hand-wave that for the bigger picture I think. But if this is the case, and the White Walkers are in direct control of the wights around them, why didn't we see this hive-mind effect before now? Wouldn't this have happened at Hardhome or in the 3 eyed raven cave when a White Walker was killed? I'm guessing those particular wights had been raised by the Night King himself and not one of his lieutenants maybe. It's hard to say exactly what the details of it are, but we did get a big clue there ... the night king and the other white walkers are directly controlling the wights via magic both to raise them from the dead and to keep them going. So Beric's theory is correct ... take out the Night King and you take out ALL of them. I know this is veering off topic a bit but it does dovetail onto the 'lone wight' thing you're having trouble accepting. I thought it very odd that one (very noisy) one didn't crumble too. He must not have been raised by that White Walker and was just along for company?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 14:46:07 GMT -5
You've actually touched on something I did find a little odd. So we got a huge clue in this sequence about the White Walkers (and this may be another Season 8 reason they wanted to do this scene the way they did) ... because we watched Jon kill a solo White Walker and the 'minions' he had with him all crumbled around him ... except for one. That was a bit too convenient in my mind, but again, I'm more than willing to hand-wave that for the bigger picture I think. But if this is the case, and the White Walkers are in direct control of the wights around them, why didn't we see this hive-mind effect before now? Wouldn't this have happened at Hardhome or in the 3 eyed raven cave when a White Walker was killed? I'm guessing those particular wights had been raised by the Night King himself and not one of his lieutenants maybe. It's hard to say exactly what the details of it are, but we did get a big clue there ... the night king and the other white walkers are directly controlling the wights via magic both to raise them from the dead and to keep them going. So Beric's theory is correct ... take out the Night King and you take out ALL of them. I know this is veering off topic a bit but it does dovetail onto the 'lone wight' thing you're having trouble accepting. I thought it very odd that one (very noisy) one didn't crumble too. He must not have been raised by that White Walker and was just along for company? I agree; I assume the Night's King "made" a large portion of the White Walkers himself. That was the point of showing us what happened to Craster's last son. And yeah it is a little convenient that a single wight was left standing after the Walker went down.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Aug 21, 2017 15:06:07 GMT -5
You've actually touched on something I did find a little odd. So we got a huge clue in this sequence about the White Walkers (and this may be another Season 8 reason they wanted to do this scene the way they did) ... because we watched Jon kill a solo White Walker and the 'minions' he had with him all crumbled around him ... except for one. That was a bit too convenient in my mind, but again, I'm more than willing to hand-wave that for the bigger picture I think. But if this is the case, and the White Walkers are in direct control of the wights around them, why didn't we see this hive-mind effect before now? Wouldn't this have happened at Hardhome or in the 3 eyed raven cave when a White Walker was killed? I'm guessing those particular wights had been raised by the Night King himself and not one of his lieutenants maybe. It's hard to say exactly what the details of it are, but we did get a big clue there ... the night king and the other white walkers are directly controlling the wights via magic both to raise them from the dead and to keep them going. So Beric's theory is correct ... take out the Night King and you take out ALL of them. I know this is veering off topic a bit but it does dovetail onto the 'lone wight' thing you're having trouble accepting. I thought it very odd that one (very noisy) one didn't crumble too. He must not have been raised by that White Walker and was just along for company? I agree; I assume the Night's King "made" a large portion of the White Walkers himself. That was the point of showing us what happened to Craster's last son. And yeah it is a little convenient that a single wight was left standing after the Walker went down. Those sort of conveniences -- that one and only one wight did not disintegrate -- did not bother me. That Jon thought they had a chance to isolate a wight -- when all the wights he has seen beyond the wall were with a WW is what I had trouble getting past. If the convenience of the one wight "surviving" was going to bother me, then again, I could not enjoy this show or shows like it at all. They frequently depend on convenient coincidences like that. So I accept whenever something that "lucky" happens in the story -- it is why I tend to forgive deus ex machina plot lines (i.e., that to make the heroes in maximum peril, the situation has to be virtually hopeless, but a hopeless situation typically cannot be resolved favorably without unlikely and convenient intervention of some kind, ergo deus ex machina). I also think that the "hive mind" is a little more complicated -- as we saw the one wight that did manage to get into Castle Black (I think back in Season 1) operate without a WW around. So the WW does not need to be directly controlling the wight -- the WW merely needs to be "alive" and presumably sending out some general "signal" regarding action. For example, I don't think that the wight they captured is being specifically guided by a WW -- rather whatever WW created that wight is still around and still sending out the "signal" generally for action -- but I have no reason to think that the specifics of the action are guided. As to whether killing the NK is enough to kill all -- not so sure. The wights are not the WW -- and the process of creating a WW is different and so death of the creator might not cause the WW to die. After all, the wights are animated by the WW and have no independent thought or "mind" in any real sense. Whereas, the other WW seem to be independent minds with their own ability to think and act on their own without control from the NK. So if a WW is killed, then there is no "signal" (as I loosely called it above) going out from the WW to keep the wight animated -- as the wight simply is a reanimated dead body -- so the wight falls apart. But if each WW has independent thought and ability to act -- then the death of the NK should not result in the death of the other WW -- just the elimination of any wights that the NK has been animating.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 15:33:32 GMT -5
You've actually touched on something I did find a little odd. So we got a huge clue in this sequence about the White Walkers (and this may be another Season 8 reason they wanted to do this scene the way they did) ... because we watched Jon kill a solo White Walker and the 'minions' he had with him all crumbled around him ... except for one. That was a bit too convenient in my mind, but again, I'm more than willing to hand-wave that for the bigger picture I think. But if this is the case, and the White Walkers are in direct control of the wights around them, why didn't we see this hive-mind effect before now? Wouldn't this have happened at Hardhome or in the 3 eyed raven cave when a White Walker was killed? I'm guessing those particular wights had been raised by the Night King himself and not one of his lieutenants maybe. It's hard to say exactly what the details of it are, but we did get a big clue there ... the night king and the other white walkers are directly controlling the wights via magic both to raise them from the dead and to keep them going. So Beric's theory is correct ... take out the Night King and you take out ALL of them. I know this is veering off topic a bit but it does dovetail onto the 'lone wight' thing you're having trouble accepting. I thought it very odd that one (very noisy) one didn't crumble too. He must not have been raised by that White Walker and was just along for company? I agree; I assume the Night's King "made" a large portion of the White Walkers himself. That was the point of showing us what happened to Craster's last son. And yeah it is a little convenient that a single wight was left standing after the Walker went down. I like to think one was left alive because this was all the NK's plan. But I wouldn't bet on it.
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Post by Envie on Aug 21, 2017 15:41:05 GMT -5
I like to think one was left alive because this was all the NK's plan. But I wouldn't bet on it. Some people think the whole thing was carefully planned because the Night King is a 'greenseer' like Bran and sees what's going to happen. He clearly can see Bran wherever he is or warged so that's a clue the Night King's powers are similar on some level with the Three Eyed Raven. If the Night King already knew dragons were in Westeros now, maybe he had plans to try and capture one for himself? Maybe sending one of his White Walkers off near Jon and crew alone was 'bait' to try and trap them? Did The Night King know Jon was still alive under the water? He has twice now let Jon Snow live or at least 'get away' when he knew he hadn't finished him off. He's clearly very intelligent and knows what he's doing and has a lot of powerful magic... so why doesn't he try to get Jon when he has the opportunity? Twice now those two have had a staring match. I could almost swear The Night King recognizes something about Jon. Either he's a Stark or he's a Targaryen or he has the power of visions the same as Bran ... something's up. I also want to point out that now that The Night King has Viserion, the dragon does in fact have three heads.
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Post by sercreighton on Aug 21, 2017 16:23:00 GMT -5
I like to think one was left alive because this was all the NK's plan. But I wouldn't bet on it. Some people think the whole thing was carefully planned because the Night King is a 'greenseer' like Bran and sees what's going to happen. He clearly can see Bran wherever he is or warged so that's a clue the Night King's powers are similar on some level with the Three Eyed Raven. If the Night King already knew dragons were in Westeros now, maybe he had plans to try and capture one for himself? Maybe sending one of his White Walkers off near Jon and crew alone was 'bait' to try and trap them? Did The Night King know Jon was still alive under the water? He has twice now let Jon Snow live or at least 'get away' when he knew he hadn't finished him off. He's clearly very intelligent and knows what he's doing and has a lot of powerful magic... so why doesn't he try to get Jon when he has the opportunity? Twice now those two have had a staring match. I could almost swear The Night King recognizes something about Jon. Either he's a Stark or he's a Targaryen or he has the power of visions the same as Bran ... something's up. I also want to point out that now that The Night King has Viserion, the dragon does in fact have three heads. Remember something about visions, the past is easy to see its over, but future visions are more vague and open to interpretation. Like may see himself riding a whit dragon, so he targets a whit dragon. He sees Jon go in the water so he thinks little of it. All I know is he could of froze that lake, and he had exactly three of those Ice Javalin things with him while he waited. They had those chains as well. I think ink the show is saving some reveals about him for season 8, end game stuff. Certain things have not been explained but that does not mean they won't be. Unfortunatly we game of thrones fans are a tell me now kinda bunch. Some stuff is also meant to be speculated upon. The Night King may represent death, but we know he isn't death, he was once a man, a creation of the children. He can be destroyed, though you can't destroy death. its a pretty crazy age in Westeros, it's the age of hero's 2.0. And man is it a motley crew. One thing I am curious about, is Beric, he could die and that's it, but I feel like they are saving him for something and that last life of his. It may be nothing and they are just skipping it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 16:25:09 GMT -5
I like to think one was left alive because this was all the NK's plan. But I wouldn't bet on it. Some people think the whole thing was carefully planned because the Night King is a 'greenseer' like Bran and sees what's going to happen. He clearly can see Bran wherever he is or warged so that's a clue the Night King's powers are similar on some level with the Three Eyed Raven. If the Night King already knew dragons were in Westeros now, maybe he had plans to try and capture one for himself? Maybe sending one of his White Walkers off near Jon and crew alone was 'bait' to try and trap them? Did The Night King know Jon was still alive under the water? He has twice now let Jon Snow live or at least 'get away' when he knew he hadn't finished him off. He's clearly very intelligent and knows what he's doing and has a lot of powerful magic... so why doesn't he try to get Jon when he has the opportunity? Twice now those two have had a staring match. I could almost swear The Night King recognizes something about Jon. Either he's a Stark or he's a Targaryen or he has the power of visions the same as Bran ... something's up. I also want to point out that now that The Night King has Viserion, the dragon does in fact have three heads.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 16:35:17 GMT -5
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Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
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Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
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envie
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Post by Envie on Aug 21, 2017 16:37:27 GMT -5
One thing I am curious about, is Beric, he could die and that's it, but I feel like they are saving him for something and that last life of his. It may be nothing and they are just skipping it. Beric's already dead in the books so I'm not sure how much of a huge impact he can have on the end-story on the show without altering the actual ending itself too drastically, but I do think he can have a heroic death while saving someone else in the process like Benjen got.
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lordcarson
Moondancer
Merry Christmas.
@lordcarson
Posts: 1,020
Likes: 1,723
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 9 Time Nominee
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Oct 12, 2019 0:50:29 GMT -5
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lordcarson
Merry Christmas.
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Jun 23, 2016 6:48:29 GMT -5
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lordcarson
9 Time Nominee
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Post by lordcarson on Aug 21, 2017 16:45:21 GMT -5
HOLY FUCKING CHRIST GUYS I JUST WATCHED IT
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