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Post by Envie on May 7, 2019 19:40:03 GMT -5
We even had a key Varys line last episode... "Perhaps the best ruler is one who doesn't want to rule" or something to that effect, which I think is pointing in that direction. I'm expecting Varys to betray Daenerys. This, along with his death, was foreshadowed in Season 7 so I guess this is the most characteristic way for him to go out. And, as you say, both Daenerys and Cersei want absolute power and neither is going to back down. I, like many Dany fans, was hoping she was going to walk away from that sort of downfall and learn to rule a different way, however, so this recent turn to stubborn refusal to work with the north (or anyone else) is not a great outcome for me. I'm hoping Jon gets her to come around somehow ... though the way they ended it last episode doesn't look like he's even going to be there to get the chance to do that.
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Post by TheArchmaester on May 7, 2019 19:47:41 GMT -5
We even had a key Varys line last episode... "Perhaps the best ruler is one who doesn't want to rule" or something to that effect, which I think is pointing in that direction. I'm expecting Varys to betray Daenerys. This, along with his death, was foreshadowed in Season 7 so I guess this is the most characteristic way for him to go out. And, as you say, both Daenerys and Cersei want absolute power and neither is going to back down. I, like many Dany fans, was hoping she was going to walk away from that sort of downfall and learn to rule a different way, however, so this recent turn to stubborn refusal to work with the north (or anyone else) is not a great outcome for me. I'm hoping Jon gets her to come around somehow ... though the way they ended it last episode doesn't look like he's even going to be there to get the chance to do that. Varys is definitely a goner. The question is is he actually going to try and get her killed? There's still time for Dany to come around. Cersei is completely gone whereas Dany is 50/50 it seems to me.
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Post by izzue on May 8, 2019 16:43:56 GMT -5
SO glad we've got this 'unsullied'/'unspoiled' thread for the last 2 eps. Thanks, TheArchmaester, great idea. Yeah, I've been afraid to come online for the last couple of days but just now decided to try it. Not only am I in premature withdrawal from the ending series, I realized now I'm in withdrawal from The House with The Red Door, too! So, earlier this afternoon, I was thinking about who will be left at the end. I agree with what's been said about Varys. The foreshadowing last season when he talked with Dany, plus when he and Mel talked, plus his comments to Tyrion last episode, pretty much cinch it for me. I'm not sure how he'll betray Dany, but he will. Somehow it will involve swinging over to Jon, but then Jon doesn't want the throne, so I have no idea. After Missandei's final word, Dany's headed for vengeance and what I'm afraid will be her doom, though I hope there is, after all, still time for her to come around. Maybe Jon will be an influence here? Even though Tyrion still believes in her, the expression on his face last episode when Missandei was executed and he saw Dany swing around doesn't hold much hope. Westeros has been so different for Dany. Whereas in Essos her single-minded determination and subsequent use of force has been against slave masters, that's not the case here. And I'm afraid that's her one coping/defense mechanism at this point, which won't ultimately work in the long run.
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Envie
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Post by Envie on May 8, 2019 17:02:32 GMT -5
Westeros has been so different for Dany. Whereas in Essos her single-minded determination and subsequent use of force has been against slave masters, that's not the case here. And I'm afraid that's her one coping/defense mechanism at this point, which won't ultimately work in the long run. Nowhere was this more painfully obvious (to her and us both) than at Winterfell. I'm sure the feast was meant to showcase that as she felt so out of place and eventually left the party early. I just really think if Daenerys could have had some patience after helping Jon and the north, this might not be happening. She pushed everyone (even as Sansa advised against it) to go immediately. It's as if she can't even stop to try and get to know people and how to lead them first, which seems out of character for her considering how long she spent doing that, and winning over people in Essos. In many ways, Dany's impatience mirrors the rushing I feel like this entire last season (and part of Season 7) has been happening for the show in general. We spent 6 long seasons building up to this ending, and 7 & 8 (which are just two halves of the final act) just feel way too rushed. Sadly, Daenerys is rushing this and now she's enraged too. She fell for the same trick Jon did when Ramsay killed Rickon. One thing I'm not sure how things are working out with the timeline is that at the end of 804 we see Daenerys turn to head for Drogon, we presume she's going to do just what Missandei said ... but the promo for 805 shows Jon facing off with armies outside King's Landing, and it's clearly not destroyed ... so does Daenerys change her mind and not torch King's Landing immediately? I'm confused.
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Post by breakfest on May 8, 2019 17:10:47 GMT -5
Well I mean her armies haven't even arrived and King's Landing is set up with dozens of scorpions, so trying to torch the city immediately would literally be suicide. I think the point to take from this is that, whilst the plan is to siege the city and foment rebellion from within, there's no way Daenerys is going to have the patience or composure for that. She'll want to go in all dragon blazing ( )
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Post by TheArchmaester on May 8, 2019 18:54:58 GMT -5
SO glad we've got this 'unsullied'/'unspoiled' thread for the last 2 eps. Thanks, TheArchmaester , great idea. Yeah, I've been afraid to come online for the last couple of days but just now decided to try it. Not only am I in premature withdrawal from the ending series, I realized now I'm in withdrawal from The House with The Red Door, too! So, earlier this afternoon, I was thinking about who will be left at the end. I agree with what's been said about Varys. The foreshadowing last season when he talked with Dany, plus when he and Mel talked, plus his comments to Tyrion last episode, pretty much cinch it for me. I'm not sure how he'll betray Dany, but he will. Somehow it will involve swinging over to Jon, but then Jon doesn't want the throne, so I have no idea. After Missandei's final word, Dany's headed for vengeance and what I'm afraid will be her doom, though I hope there is, after all, still time for her to come around. Maybe Jon will be an influence here? Even though Tyrion still believes in her, the expression on his face last episode when Missandei was executed and he saw Dany swing around doesn't hold much hope. Westeros has been so different for Dany. Whereas in Essos her single-minded determination and subsequent use of force has been against slave masters, that's not the case here. And I'm afraid that's her one coping/defense mechanism at this point, which won't ultimately work in the long run. Great post. Dany's biggest flaw here is tackling Westeros as if it were Essos - it just isn't. In Essos she was a revolutionary and a liberator; in Westeros she's more of the same. And I think she feels she's running out of time: Cersei could easily retake the south with the Golden Company. It all feels rather desperate. Rewatching the show, her entire arc becomes more and more clear: the epitome of the displaced person, always looking for a home that she may never find, and a stranger to true familial love. In Essos, she finds adoration and worshipping, not love. And in Westeros she gets neither. Despite her best intentions (and she has them), the ingredients for a tragic character are all in place. In contrast, Jon always had a sense of family and home and he quickly got a sense of duty when he joined the Night's Watch. It's no wonder Varys thinks he's the more stable choice for Westeros, whether the audience agrees with him or not (that's up to the viewer to decide). Missandei's "Dracarys" is just bone-chilling. She is arguably the most peaceful character in all of GoT, but this one word may be about to ignite a world of cruelty from all sides. Again, tragic, but it makes perfect sense. Missandei thought of Daenerys as the Breaker of Chains until her dying breath.
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Envie
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Post by Envie on May 8, 2019 19:11:53 GMT -5
Well I mean her armies haven't even arrived and King's Landing is set up with dozens of scorpions, so trying to torch the city immediately would literally be suicide. This is true. I felt like she was so enraged at that moment she might just go get on Drogon and do a suicide run anyway. I guess she will have to fly back to Dragonstone and wait for Jon and the armies. Dany's biggest flaw here is tackling Westeros as if it were Essos - it just isn't. In Essos she was a revolutionary and a liberator; in Westeros she's more of the same. And I think she feels she's running out of time: Cersei could easily retake the south with the Golden Company. It all feels rather desperate. She's a conqueror like Robert Baratheon before her and Aegon before that. Daario did call it. She won't be happy being Queen, ultimately, but doesn't seem to see anything but that end goal. I too think she feels like she's running out of time - but could some of that rushing be due to finding out Jon's claim might be better than hers and wanting to take the throne before the people have a chance to find out about him? Jon said he had to tell his family and Dany seemed to know that meant everyone would find out, and boy was that right since Sansa ran straight to Tyrion. I wonder how Dany will react when she finds out Tyrion and Varys already know? It *is* treason they were both discussing. If Tyrion believes in Daenerys why doesn't he warn her right away? Maybe he will. I just feel like this whole thing is about to implode.
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Post by izzue on May 8, 2019 21:15:44 GMT -5
Rewatching the show, her entire arc becomes more and more clear: the epitome of the displaced person, always looking for a home that she may never find, and a stranger to true familial love. In Essos, she finds adoration and worshipping, not love. And in Westeros she gets neither. Despite her best intentions (and she has them), the ingredients for a tragic character are all in place. In contrast, Jon always had a sense of family and home and he quickly got a sense of duty when he joined the Night's Watch. Yes! It's so sad because now that she actually has the chance for a real family and love, she doesn't know what that looks like. She's been conditioned to see the adoration and worship she had in Essos as family and love, but no matter how much Jorah, Missandei, et. al. loved her or how loyal they were to her, still she was the queen and they were her subjects - not a relationship between equals at all. And as nasty as Sansa was to her (and she was!), for her part Dany expected the relationship to be that of a queen and her subject, not a queen and her potential sister-in-law. That awful power struggle between the two of them. She's a conqueror like Robert Baratheon before her and Aegon before that. Daario did call it. She won't be happy being Queen, ultimately, but doesn't seem to see anything but that end goal. I too think she feels like she's running out of time - but could some of that rushing be due to finding out Jon's claim might be better than hers and wanting to take the throne before the people have a chance to find out about him? Jon said he had to tell his family and Dany seemed to know that meant everyone would find out, and boy was that right since Sansa ran straight to Tyrion. I wonder how Dany will react when she finds out Tyrion and Varys already know? It *is* treason they were both discussing. If Tyrion believes in Daenerys why doesn't he warn her right away? Maybe he will. I just feel like this whole thing is about to implode. TheArchmaester was talking about all the ingredients being in place for Dany to be a tragic character. I see her tragic flaw as having such a monolithic, single-minded focus on getting the IT, regardless of what it took, that's it's blinded her to anything else. She's not a ruthless person, but she has done ruthless things, nonetheless, whether for 'a just cause' or not. It reminds me of how Envie talked about Jaime being addicted to Cersei -- Dany has become so obsessed with the IT that she can't see anything else, can't see that although she thinks she's there to free the world of tyrants, she's in danger of becoming one herself in pursuit of that goal.
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Post by izzue on May 8, 2019 21:33:02 GMT -5
This is a list I compiled, just to see more clearly the results of housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/post/54181/thread. With only 2 episodes left for the big battle and the aftermath, it makes predictions a little easier. I'm thinking Tormund, Sam, Gilly, Sansa, Bran, and Brienne are now 'safely' out of the storyline (i.e., assured of still being alive at the end of it all). How do you think the rest of it will work out? 1. Euron 2. Cersei and Mel ✅ Mel is dead3. —see above 4. Varys 5. Jaime 6. Jorah ✅ Jorah is dead7. Tormund8. Dany 9. Theon and Bronn ✅ Theon is dead10. —see above 11. Sandor 12. Bran, Tyrion, and Jon 13. —see above 14. —see above 15. Sansa and Missandei ✅ Missandei is dead16. —see above 17. Davos and Brienne18. —see above 19. Gilly and Arya 20. —See above 21. Gendry and Sam22. —see above So, basically, we're down to Euron, Cersei, Varys, Jaime, Dany, Bronn, Sandor, Tyrion, Jon, Davos, Arya, and Gendry. Also realized Pod wasn't included in the list.
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Post by TheArchmaester on May 9, 2019 13:37:06 GMT -5
I'd say Cersei, Jaime, Euron and Varys will bite the dust. Maybe Sandor too. But that feels too easy. The wildcard/shocking death is going to be Tyrion or Dany imo, not sure which.
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Post by Envie on May 9, 2019 13:47:23 GMT -5
I'd say Cersei, Jaime, Euron and Varys will bite the dust. Maybe Sandor too. But that feels too easy. The wildcard/shocking death is going to be Tyrion or Dany imo, not sure which. I think I agree with most of the list izzue made, and you're right - the easy guesses are the ones you listed. I don't think Sandor's going to survive both KL battle and Cleganebowl so he's probably going to go. I never would have guessed Tyrion before Season 7, but they have really been setting him up for betrayal to Dany because of those "divided loyalties" Sansa called out immediately when they talked. He's such a fan favorite, I can't even imagine it but I suppose it's possible and the foreshadowing is definitely there. As for Dany/Jon, I always imagined it would be Jon that dies of the two of them, because like Beric, he's basically been living on borrowed time for whatever reason the Lord of Light decided he needs to be around longer for, and we saw Beric's last save was a very important one so I would hope Jon's is too if he goes.
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Post by laurya on May 9, 2019 14:39:33 GMT -5
Greyworm is missing too from that list. Last member of OG Team Dany. ( ) I'm still 50/50 on him dying.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2019 17:15:05 GMT -5
Not a plot-related musing, but I wonder what music will play over the final closing credits. I'm guessing either "Game of Thrones" from the season one soundtrack or a special rendition of the main theme.
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Post by TheArchmaester on May 9, 2019 20:34:52 GMT -5
Well I mean her armies haven't even arrived and King's Landing is set up with dozens of scorpions, so trying to torch the city immediately would literally be suicide. This is true. I felt like she was so enraged at that moment she might just go get on Drogon and do a suicide run anyway. I guess she will have to fly back to Dragonstone and wait for Jon and the armies. Dany's biggest flaw here is tackling Westeros as if it were Essos - it just isn't. In Essos she was a revolutionary and a liberator; in Westeros she's more of the same. And I think she feels she's running out of time: Cersei could easily retake the south with the Golden Company. It all feels rather desperate. She's a conqueror like Robert Baratheon before her and Aegon before that. Daario did call it. She won't be happy being Queen, ultimately, but doesn't seem to see anything but that end goal. I too think she feels like she's running out of time - but could some of that rushing be due to finding out Jon's claim might be better than hers and wanting to take the throne before the people have a chance to find out about him? Jon said he had to tell his family and Dany seemed to know that meant everyone would find out, and boy was that right since Sansa ran straight to Tyrion. I wonder how Dany will react when she finds out Tyrion and Varys already know? It *is* treason they were both discussing. If Tyrion believes in Daenerys why doesn't he warn her right away? Maybe he will. I just feel like this whole thing is about to implode. I think that is definitely adding to the urgency here. She knows the people love Jon. My prediction pre-season was that Jon and Dany would leave the throne to someone else and head to Essos for a peaceful life. I definitely can't see that happening anymore... I feel like their love story was there to explore the differences between Jon and Dany and to get the final conflict going. Hard to see a "happily ever after" for them now in either continent.
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Envie
Vhagar
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Post by Envie on May 9, 2019 20:47:46 GMT -5
My prediction pre-season was that Jon and Dany would leave the throne to someone else and head to Essos for a peaceful life. I definitely can't see that happening anymore... I feel like their love story was there to explore the differences between Jon and Dany and to get the final conflict going. Hard to see a "happily ever after" for them now in either continent. I thought that could happen, or perhaps they just reside at Dragonstone and run things as a federation if the Iron Throne and King's Landing were destroyed by dragons/white walkers/wildfire ... but now I'm not so sure anymore. You're right - the recent (very rapid) turn of events has shaken up just about everything I imagined could happen. It's far more complicated and messy both between the various family members and advisors as well as between Dany and Jon. I suppose all this could get unraveled in a way that makes sense (last minute wedding between Jon/Dany) but really, at this point, will they ever be truly happy together? Jon doesn't want to be King of the 7 kingdoms (or even one kingdom) and Daenerys doesn't seem to want to accept him as a co-ruler and the secret is out. There's hardly any way to reconcile this now. I have a really apprehensive feeling going into the finale now.
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