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Post by milyagaryen on Sept 5, 2017 18:56:06 GMT -5
Got into an argument today with someone who claims that the scene between J/D and R/L wasn't romantic, it was presented as creepy. They also said that cinema is open to interpretation, so obviously they aren't wrong. Well, I think there are two different issues here. What the viewer perceive and what was intended by the show? It was clearly intended to be romantic, however, there were undertones or overtones (with Bran's voice over) that, although, these two characters were in love there will be difficulties up ahead given the revelation of Jon's parentage. Having said that, it wasn't meant to be creepy at all and that's just that person's own feeling about this development. I don't think it was intended to be creepy, but I think D&D (and GRRM) were definitely giggling to themselves about how conflicted a large part of the audience was going to feel watching the scene. They love playing with their audience's feelings! But if it was meant to be creepy it would have been scored very differently - instead we got the most romantic and epic version of Dany and Jon's theme, with only slight foreboding elements when the scene cut to Tyrion.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2017 19:48:44 GMT -5
Well, I think there are two different issues here. What the viewer perceive and what was intended by the show? It was clearly intended to be romantic, however, there were undertones or overtones (with Bran's voice over) that, although, these two characters were in love there will be difficulties up ahead given the revelation of Jon's parentage. Having said that, it wasn't meant to be creepy at all and that's just that person's own feeling about this development. I don't think it was intended to be creepy, but I think D&D (and GRRM) were definitely giggling to themselves about how conflicted a large part of the audience was going to feel watching the scene. They love playing with their audience's feelings! But if it was meant to be creepy it would have been scored very differently - instead we got the most romantic and epic version of Dany and Jon's theme, with only slight foreboding elements when the scene cut to Tyrion. This is my take on it as well. The score sets the tone and "creepy" sure as hell wasn't how I felt during the scene.
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Post by Envie on Sept 5, 2017 20:29:30 GMT -5
They love playing with their audience's feelings! They do, and that's why fans are always so conflicted about a lot of the characters. Cersei, Jaime, Theon, Arya, just to name a few ... all of them have caused some heated debate over their story arc, their motives, their mental state, etc. etc. It's definitely intentional across the board both in how the author wrote it and how the show writers are portraying them on screen. Finally, we have have two "good guy" protagonists coming together but under conflicted circumstances. Both Jon and Daenerys (in their separate lives) have experienced so much conflict, do we really expect their relationship to be smooth sailing the whole time? Sorry, the saying had to be used.
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Post by sercreighton on Sept 5, 2017 21:30:49 GMT -5
Got into an argument today with someone who claims that the scene between J/D and R/L wasn't romantic, it was presented as creepy. They also said that cinema is open to interpretation, so obviously they aren't wrong. That's not technically an interpretation, that is an opinion, it lacks any for explination, they may feel it was creepy and make some half backed excuse why it was creepy. But it's a classically juxtaposed set of images, one of Ice and fire and one of ice and fire where the genders are reversed. R/L is a simple and classicly structured tragic romance. An interpretation is an explination of why something is. An opinion is what someone thinks something is. Someone might say Jon and Dany are heroic to them, but it does not explain why they are. People often try to pass off opinion as interpretation so they don't have to do the hard part and explain it. So an interpretation of Jon and Dany as a heroic figures while obvious might go something like this. Jon is structured off Scotts noble proper heroic Everyman Ivhanhoe, Though Martin blended traits of the Byronic hero in Jon as well. The Ivhanhoe trilogy properly titled Romance, features 2 heroes one proper and one darker, with features of impersonal and personal Justice represented as traits of these two, or the white hat and the black hat. Jon shares his core traits with Ivhanhoe while being the most purely defined symbol of good, while maintaining some anti hero treats such as his rebellious streak. He tends to be juxtaposed to Daenerys the darker hero. In her we see the more pronounced trait of personal Justice, while impersonal Justice is the lesser trait. Which is the inverse of Jon. While they share the same trait in each we find the opposing traits more pronounced. Where Daenerys might be hot Jon is cool. In Daenerys we find the Byronic anti hero, she is darkly romantic, a revolutionary with a taste for vengence and Justice rolled into one. In both characters we also find traits of the Proto Marxist class warrior, though it is more evident with Daenerys the wheel breaker. That is not say Jon lacks some elements of the class warrior, it just exists on a smaller scale. The two represent a tantalizing look at the light and darks sides of heroes and Justice. Jon often prefers to play by the rules but will bend or even break them if they go against his person code of conduct, while Daenerys very much makes her own rules and challenges long embedded societal norms within her world. Even before meeting the two counter parts defined the other. They serve as the romanticized core heroic figures of Martins series who's fates are intertwined in their song of ice and fire. Don't fully hold me to the example, I just quickly wrote it off the cuff based off an essay from a long time ago I less than half remember. But that is an interpretation. Finding something creepy is more a matter of taste than it is any sort of interpretation. It's no different than saying I think ice cream taste good. Or in the case of the person you argued with, the interpretation, lacks interpretation. The claim may as well say this is my opinion, often times people use interpretation to imply an educated insight, however interpretation is open to debate. Here it's really used as opinion it indicates personal taste and is not open for debate. Any interpretation is debatable while not all opinions are, it is an ignorant statement which shows a lack of Fundimental understanding of both what is being viewed and what is being claimed, with zero to no insight offered or given, no valid explination.
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milyagaryen
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Post by milyagaryen on Sept 5, 2017 22:56:01 GMT -5
Well, I think there are two different issues here. What the viewer perceive and what was intended by the show? It was clearly intended to be romantic, however, there were undertones or overtones (with Bran's voice over) that, although, these two characters were in love there will be difficulties up ahead given the revelation of Jon's parentage. Having said that, it wasn't meant to be creepy at all and that's just that person's own feeling about this development. I've noticed that when a person doesn't want to see something romantic between these two, they don't see it. It's why we're getting those ridiculous comments about there being no chemistry between Kit and Emilia. Chemistry is definitely very subjective. Putting other shippers aside, I think a lot of people who say there is no chemistry feel this way because Dany and Jon's interactions so far don't have that flirty, teasing element that was present for Jon/Ygritte (mostly from Ygritte), Daenerys/Daario and is usually present in most modern romances. I think this serious/teasing dynamic is the reason we love Kit and Emilia together so much too - they work really well as foils for each other. But teasing isn't the only way to show attraction to someone and Jon and Dany are both too serious and responsible to randomly tease and flirt with another monarch. Instead we get lingering eye contact (eyes only - because Jon Snow is of course far too honourable to check out a woman's lips and body unless they have some sort of established relationship) and discussions about leadership. Because while we know there is more to Jon and Dany than their crowns, who they are as leaders is still fundamental to their personal identities and it's important that any prospective partner understands, appreciates and respects this part of their life. Once that respect is established - bingo - they can start opening up and acting like your more regular romantic relationship. So we get a little hint of teasing in their conversation in the dragon pit. I think this is also the first scene where Jon lets his eyes drop from hers and look at the rest of her (maybe the first boat scene too, but that was a bit different). Then finally - le boatsex. Pretty sure there will be more traditional romantic behaviour in the future too.
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Post by charliexcx on Sept 6, 2017 4:18:04 GMT -5
For me, I think the reason why I don't have a problem with seeing Jon dicking down Dany is because they didn't grow up together(they don't even look alike) and I don't really see Jon & Dany as the characters but Kit & Emilia on my screen lol. I don't even get grossed out at Cersei and Jaime like I should but I just don't for some reason. Maybe this show has desensitized me because naked scenes don't even catch me off guard like they used to.
I think these cases of not knowing you could be in a relationship with a family member are more common than a lot think. I know I had cousins walking around in my old neighborhood and had no idea until recent years. I actually went to school with a girl who dated her 1st cousin without even knowing.
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Post by charliexcx on Sept 6, 2017 4:22:21 GMT -5
Yes hopefully Dany will be wearing some great Targaryen armor next season. All this talk about her and arrows is starting to scare me. They mentioned it again in the finale(this time by Jorah). At this point I wouldn't be surprised if she got injured in battle come season 8. D&D are a little heavy handed on the foreshadowing.
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Post by charliexcx on Sept 6, 2017 4:42:53 GMT -5
On another note, I highly recommend this video when you have a spare 20 minutes: Whenever I see these recap/parallel videos it really drives home to me what a terrible brother Viserys was. Compare him to what Ned did for Lyanna or how Jon feels about Arya and even Sansa. It's just awful. I actually can't believe people seriously used to argue Jon wouldn't like Daenerys because she stood by while her brother was killed. Jon would probably kill Viserys himself if he had the chance. Right! That was and still is one of the dumbest argument I ever heard when people tried to say Jon wouldn't like Dany. You mean Jon would hate Dany for letting her abusive mad brother who threatened her and her unborn child die? The delusion in this fandom sometimes I tell ya. Just fits my theory that a lot who read/watch this series do not understand it or Martin's characters.
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Post by Lils on Sept 6, 2017 8:25:32 GMT -5
On another note, I highly recommend this video when you have a spare 20 minutes: Whenever I see these recap/parallel videos it really drives home to me what a terrible brother Viserys was. Compare him to what Ned did for Lyanna or how Jon feels about Arya and even Sansa. It's just awful. I actually can't believe people seriously used to argue Jon wouldn't like Daenerys because she stood by while her brother was killed. Jon would probably kill Viserys himself if he had the chance. Right! That was and still is one of the dumbest argument I ever heard when people tried to say Jon wouldn't like Dany. You mean Jon would hate Dany for letting her abusive mad brother who threatened her and her unborn child die? The delusion in this fandom sometimes I tell ya. Just fits my theory that a lot who read/watch this series do not understand it or Martin's characters. I'm fairly certain Jon knows Sansa fed Ramsay to the dogs. That's the sort of thing you don't really miss, especially the aftermath. But he still trusts and respects Sansa. Tormund and Ygritte wanted him to kill an innocent farmer and he still cares for them (cared in Ygritte's case). Jon's not so morally black and white as people like to think. He's done questionable things. This is why I don't think he's going to be terribly put out over Randyl Tarly being killed. Dickon, he might be a bit "why?" but it's not going to change how he views Dany. He seemed to understand that sometimes "strength is terrible." Sam might be upset over his brother, but he knew who his father was. Randyl might not have been mad like Viserys, but he was just as cruel. He threatened Sam's life and tormented him. Jon isn't going to be angry over either of their losses.
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Post by Lils on Sept 6, 2017 8:30:22 GMT -5
I've noticed that when a person doesn't want to see something romantic between these two, they don't see it. It's why we're getting those ridiculous comments about there being no chemistry between Kit and Emilia. Chemistry is definitely very subjective. Putting other shippers aside, I think a lot of people who say there is no chemistry feel this way because Dany and Jon's interactions so far don't have that flirty, teasing element that was present for Jon/Ygritte (mostly from Ygritte), Daenerys/Daario and is usually present in most modern romances. I think this serious/teasing dynamic is the reason we love Kit and Emilia together so much too - they work really well as foils for each other. But teasing isn't the only way to show attraction to someone and Jon and Dany are both too serious and responsible to randomly tease and flirt with another monarch. Instead we get lingering eye contact (eyes only - because Jon Snow is of course far too honourable to check out a woman's lips and body unless they have some sort of established relationship) and discussions about leadership. Because while we know there is more to Jon and Dany than their crowns, who they are as leaders is still fundamental to their personal identities and it's important that any prospective partner understands, appreciates and respects this part of their life. Once that respect is established - bingo - they can start opening up and acting like your more regular romantic relationship. So we get a little hint of teasing in their conversation in the dragon pit. I think this is also the first scene where Jon lets his eyes drop from hers and look at the rest of her (maybe the first boat scene too, but that was a bit different). Then finally - le boatsex. Pretty sure there will be more traditional romantic behaviour in the future too. This is a really good point. I don't know why people think their relationship would be the same as J/Y or D/D. They are different people than they were then, more grown up and driven. Like Jon said "There's no time for that." They weren't going to flirt and tease while they were trying to work out an alliance for two different wars. I think after Jon nearly died, that was the turning point. There wasn't any question between them about their feelings and they weren't exactly denying it. Dany might have left the room in a hurry, but she knew and he knew. There was no change to their interaction in the negative, instead they actually started to flirt and tease with each other, while still talking seriously.'' They were lovers that moment after the Wight Hunt, just unconsummated lovers. We could already see signs of how they would be once they actually had sex. They are reckless with each other, Jon putting Dany first. They tease, they flirt and they make decisions together. I have a feeling they will decide about the matter of Jon's paternity together. That word isn't being used so often for nothing.
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Post by moiaf on Sept 6, 2017 8:53:14 GMT -5
I just posted this on my blog:
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Post by TheMadQueen on Sept 6, 2017 10:36:29 GMT -5
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Post by sercreighton on Sept 6, 2017 12:24:34 GMT -5
I just posted this on my blog: I think Missy sort of addresses this when she talks with Davos and Jon. I believe Dany knows what it is but like Missy the concept is very alien to her.
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Post by sercreighton on Sept 6, 2017 13:24:25 GMT -5
So I was thinking about a couple of things with the boat sex scene, which is a series of short transitions begining with Bran as his narration floats through the transitions. The scene itself is pretty direct, and the subtext is obviously more complicated. J/D are very simply juxtaposed to R/L, now we often look at parallels, and cycles while discussing scenes and mix in a healthy helping of common themes in the series. You get some direct foreshadowing.
So I thought I would do a simple interpretation sans the creepy now that some time has passed and I had a chance to think about it some.
History doesn't repeat but it often rhymes, now it begins, no now it ends, opposite ends of the same coin. Three simple core themes I'll use along with Ice and fire.
So we see the obvious juxtaposition, things are similar but different. Rhaegar and Lyanna, a tragic love story in the Romeo and Juliet style. There was a war with Robert a blue eyed horned lord (antlers) not just any lord but a storm lord. It ends with a child and tragic deaths, there is a immaturity and impulsiveness to the relationship with them running off and hiding. Jon and Dany are also in love, but show a maturity they are not hiding but choosing to face their storm a blue eyed king with horns on his head. You have the Targ Stark Union, of course this one is different with Jon's parantage. These pairings are essentially opposite ends of the same coin. I doubt the night King wins this war, I doubt the mad queen remains on the throne etc. R/L begins the story as Martin often points out, while J/D are clearly end game. We could go more in depth with symbolism but it's not necessary we know about dragon dreams and blue roses, gender role reversal is obovious here. I think it's clearly understood that a child will be born by most. It's also obvious from the narration that the love Bran speaks of shared love between the two couples as his love comments transition from one couple to the other. Both scenes are romantic and, represent unity in their own ways. We see the foreshadowing of a child, but also lineage complications, and some teasing foreboding from Tyrion. What's up with the half man? Will find out next season I guess. Brans narration is a bit annoying and serves to temper hopes and dreams of fans in the near term. We will obviously see some complications and drama before it resolves in the final chapter.
Now moving away from the scene some question of Bran hangs in the air. We learn just before this Bran is not always right and his knowledge is limited to what he sees. Sam corrects him but even Sam is only giving us that brief glimps. It seems to resolve with Jon's lineage being fully revealed. But I doubt it is. If we go back to season six you will recall Bloodraven did not want Bran to go into the tower of Joy. He wanted him to see outside of it, but stopped him from entering. Why? It really would not have changed anything, or would it? Bran is also never directed towards Dany. Which for Bloodraven you would think, hey that's a big deal in the war for the dawn. He did not seem to want Bran focused on Jon or Dany as if he does not want it interfered with. Or perhaps there was a lot more to see in proper time. But Bran did a no no and went and looked at the Night King which led to the death of Bloodraven, Summer, Leaf and the children, and Hold the Door. A lot of people focus on Bran and what he will do to stop or fight the Night King, my guess is that his purpose will revolve around Jon and Dany rather than directly with the Night King.
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Post by Envie on Sept 6, 2017 16:18:30 GMT -5
There was a war with Robert a blue eyed horned lord (antlers) not just any lord but a storm lord. It ends with a child and tragic deaths, there is a immaturity and impulsiveness to the relationship with them running off and hiding. Jon and Dany are also in love, but show a maturity they are not hiding but choosing to face their storm a blue eyed king with horns on his head. You have the Targ Stark Union, of course this one is different with Jon's parantage. These pairings are essentially opposite ends of the same coin. I doubt the night King wins this war, I doubt the mad queen remains on the throne etc. R/L begins the story as Martin often points out, while J/D are clearly end game. Love this part! When we talk about parallels in Game of Thrones (or in ASOIAF in general) we often refer to symmetry and callbacks where stories come back around full-circle or repeat themselves. But not always is it a parallel of exact outcomes. Sometimes it's an opposite parallel and I really do think that's the case with Jon and Daenerys compared to Rhaegar and Lyanna as you so perfectly pointed out. Right down to the opposite color of their hair (Lyanna was the dark haired one in the original pair, and now Jon is the dark haired one on the opposite side of things). But more importantly than the obvious physical and situational 'love' circle is the greater (and scarier) aspect of that blue-eyed storm king. In the first round, he was just a mortal man, but he destroyed Rhaegar Targaryen. In this round, he's a supernatural demon king. But will he destroy Jon? If we're seeing opposites here, then no - I think that means Jon will live. People would have a more valid argument to say the opposite person to die would be Daenerys as parallel to Rhaegar. I just hope Daenerys isn't going to die in childbirth like Lyanna did as the parallel there. To me, the opposite would be she lives where Lyanna died! Because both Rhaegar and Lyanna died for their love, I do hope the opposite parallel is that Jon and Daenerys will live for their love. They will defeat the blue-eyed king and bring balance back to Westeros ... sort of how 'the force' is always in constant play between the light and dark side.
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