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Post by konradsmith on Jul 17, 2017 2:43:51 GMT -5
The Hound scene and the Arya-Lannister scenes both work well for the same reason. Two cynical characters have changes of heart. The Hound realizes the Brotherhood do indeed have a purpose and he can aid it. They're not charlatans or somehow just lucky in their magic. He's made aware of their purpose. The same is true for Arya. In the past she'd have killed Lannister troops simply for wearing the uniform. But here she saw humanity and generosity and realized whatever the Lannisters did to her family, their troops are regular people. Which I suppose if I knew jackshit about Ed Sheeran would undermine the "regular people" angle. But thankfully I know next to nothing about the guy, so his cameo didn't stick out like a sore thumb at all.
Anyhow. Good scenes. Any time you can convey a character having a change of heart, particularly one that effects their core principles without outright having the character say as much in an obvious way, that tends to make for a good scene.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Jul 17, 2017 2:58:30 GMT -5
The Hound scene and the Arya-Lannister scenes both work well for the same reason. The two cynical characters have changes of heart. The Hound realizes the Brotherhood do indeed have a purpose and he can aid it. They're not charlatans or somehow just lucky in their magic. He's been made aware of their purpose too. The same is true for Arya. In the past she'd have killed Lannister troops simply for wearing the uniform. But here she saw humanity and generosity and realized whatever the Lannisters did to her family, their troops were just regular people. Which I suppose if I knew jackshit about Ed Sheeran would undermine the "regular people" angle. But thankfully I know next to nothing about the guy, so his cameo didn't stick out like a sore thumb at all. Anyhow. Good scenes. Any time you can convey a character having a change of heart, particularly one that effects their core principles without outright having the character say as much in an obvious way, that tends to make for a good scene. Good points. These scenes also work so well because they're echoes of previous stuff. Arya has killed enemy soldiers in campsites before (of course, those weren't so nice.) And The Hound stole food from those peasants: though he didn't kill them directly, he is involved in their fate/death. So he isn't just burying his old self when he starts digging that grave: in some ways he's admitting his own evil for the first time (not in a cynical "it's how the world works" kind of way), then attempts to say a prayer like the old farmer would've done. It's a great scene, really.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 5:25:27 GMT -5
I'll start with the negatives: I really disliked both of Arya's scenes in this one. I get they just want to tie up loose ends, but it's just totally unnecessary to kill every Frey. They could've just ended it where it was last season. She didn't even free Edmure! If I didn't know about the valonqar thing from the books, I would genuinely believe Arya is going to kill Cersei. She's so overpowered it's ridiculous.
Second scene, while not as bad, I still didn't enjoy. Other musicians' cameos have been blink-and-miss. Why is Ed Sheeran's thrown in our faces repeatedly? And of course he's singing. I've never cringed as much while watching this show. Not even via the bad pussy.
I still don't like Euron. His "madness" is more annoying than intimidating.
And I feel like the Sansa-Jon rivalry is just so artificial. The "you sound like you admire her" line is just .. wrong. I did not get that impression at all. It just seems so fake.
That said, I did enjoy the rest.
Loved the Sandor scenes. Nice callback to season 4 with the father and daughter, and making Sandor the gravedigger was a nice reference too.
Oldtown was a bit too long, and maybe had too many shots of watery shits, but the rest was good. I knew from the moment I heard Jim Broadbent was going to be in the show that he'd be a maester. Was there any other choice?
Dragonstone was the best scene of the episode for me. Even though they continue to pour salt into my Stannis-shaped wound, it was still fantastic.
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Post by Envie on Jul 17, 2017 6:58:06 GMT -5
Other musicians' cameos have been blink-and-miss. Why is Ed Sheeran's thrown in our faces repeatedly? And of course he's singing. I've never cringed as much while watching this show. Not even via the bad pussy. I think the Ed Sheeran singing and cameo scene was probably a lot worse for those in his own neck of the woods than it is for those of us in other parts of the world who barely know about him. While I've heard of him and seen him on websites here and there, I'm not a big follower of his music and he falls in the 'young teen fan' category for me so there's no traction there on my radar. Couldn't care less. His face (to me) was no more noteworthy than any of the other young fellows at that campfire (though the dark haired one who talked of his wife having their first baby was quite handsome). It helps for me to know D&D cast Ed Sheeran specifically as a surprise present to Maisie because she was a big fan of his (which is appropriate for her age) so I thought it was sweet and he does have a nice voice.
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Post by nikma on Jul 17, 2017 7:04:11 GMT -5
I think this episode really showed that D&D had more time for writing this year.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 7:11:05 GMT -5
Other musicians' cameos have been blink-and-miss. Why is Ed Sheeran's thrown in our faces repeatedly? And of course he's singing. I've never cringed as much while watching this show. Not even via the bad pussy. I think the Ed Sheeran singing and cameo scene was probably a lot worse for those in his own neck of the woods than it is for those of us in other parts of the world who barely know about him. While I've heard of him and seen him on websites here and there, I'm not a big follower of his music and he falls in the 'young teen fan' category for me so there's no traction there on my radar. Couldn't care less. His face (to me) was no more noteworthy than any of the other young fellows at that campfire (though the dark haired one who talked of his wife having their first baby was quite handsome). It helps for me to know D&D cast Ed Sheeran specifically as a surprise present to Maisie because she was a big fan of his (which is appropriate for her age) so I thought it was sweet and he does have a nice voice. Seeing his face is just a little jarring and does kinda take me out of it. Especially when he's sitting right next to Arya and so gets the same amount of screentime that she does. But that's nitpicking at the highest level. I didn't know he was cast specifically for Maisie though. That is quite sweet and makes it a bit better.
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Post by Envie on Jul 17, 2017 7:17:09 GMT -5
I think the Ed Sheeran singing and cameo scene was probably a lot worse for those in his own neck of the woods than it is for those of us in other parts of the world who barely know about him. While I've heard of him and seen him on websites here and there, I'm not a big follower of his music and he falls in the 'young teen fan' category for me so there's no traction there on my radar. Couldn't care less. His face (to me) was no more noteworthy than any of the other young fellows at that campfire (though the dark haired one who talked of his wife having their first baby was quite handsome). It helps for me to know D&D cast Ed Sheeran specifically as a surprise present to Maisie because she was a big fan of his (which is appropriate for her age) so I thought it was sweet and he does have a nice voice. Seeing his face is just a little jarring and does kinda take me out of it. Especially when he's sitting right next to Arya and so gets the same amount of screentime that she does. But that's nitpicking at the highest level. I didn't know he was cast specifically for Maisie though. That is quite sweet and makes it a bit better. www.standard.co.uk/stayingin/tvfilm/ed-sheeran-was-cast-in-game-of-thrones-as-a-surprise-for-fan-maisie-williams-a3589541.htmlYeah I think it helps make it less cheesy knowing it was planned as a gift to a young fan of his and Maisie is awesome so she deserves it even if we 'grownups' find it a bit cheesy. When you become a parent of teens you realize you're willing to do cheesy things to make them happy. I hope we eventually get to see behind the scenes of her meeting him on the set or at least some interview bits between them as to her reaction!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 7:39:52 GMT -5
I loved it. I loved it so much. I was surprised by how much I enjoyed Euron, he may not be as dark as his book counterpart but he surely has a crazy vibe.
Everything the Hound was amazing.
Everything Littlefinger was creepy.
Also enjoyed Thoros and Beric, with the Hound they form an interesting trio.
Sansa, the Hound, Arya and Euron had some of the best lines ever. And the dialogue seemed so tight.
Also Jaimie, "Queen of Three Kingdoms" line
Jaimie might have, finally, started to see just how damaged Cersei is. He was reluctant and vary more than a few times around her.
I have no problem with Sansa speaking her mind, if Lyanna Mormont is allowed to, so is Lady Sansa Stark. It would be wiser if she and Jon discussed such matters in advance though, between the two of them, or if Jon does not want her advice, at all, he should ban her from meetings. Even better if Jon formed a small council with trusted advisors, unless the hall full of Lords is supposed to be that.
I see the logic behind Jon and Sansa reasoning, it fits their characters, both in how they wished to deal with the turncloaks and how they prioritiz e one enemy over the other. Jon might have a bit of a tunnel vision there, but it's only natural, considering he has not dealt with Cersei or the other masterminds and the NK, surely, is a force to be terrified of.
Plus, I think that Jon is very confident the Kindom will stand together against the WW, it's the only logical move to survive them, the Northerners and Wildlings managed to work together after all...still Jon does not know Cersei.
I can't help but feel Jon was a bit of a jerk to Sansa after the ruling. He wasn't wrong, asking her to not contradict him in public but the way he went about it felt very unJon to me.
The cold opening was absolutely amazing and stole the show... almost.
As for me the most touching, emotional, powerful moment was Daenerys arriving at Dragonstone, it was such a solemn scene, like the fulfillment of a promise, I loved Dragonstone and the absence of dialogue, my favorite part was Daenerys touching the sand, a small gesture charged with meaning.
Also interesting to notice how Daenerys never goes for the Throne. She did it in the HotU vision and again in Dragonstone, she skips the Throne to take on other matters. And no, I do not think this to be foreshadowing of Daenerys not ruling in the end (not saying that she will or that she will not), I think this to be a testament to the fact that she is a dynamic active force that she is not after the Throne for the Throne sake. She is a rescuer first and foremost,
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Post by Lils on Jul 17, 2017 8:14:24 GMT -5
There was so much I loved. I loved how Jon and Sansa's arguments both had foundation. Neither of them were put up to make the other look ignorant. There was still an undercurrent of sibling affection between them, even when they disagreed. I loved Sansa not bothering to listen to Baelish, she's so done. Tormund and Brienne, however brief it was had be laughing. Emilia's epic moment on the beach. She really did amazing and silent scenes are tough because you have no words to evoke your emotions, it's in the eyes and body. Emilia has big beautiful eyes that expressed every thought. Maisie was really on top of her game this episode. I also loved seeing how far the Hound has come in his arc. He was standing near fire and giving in something he normally would dismiss. Then his regret and attempts to pray over the graves. It was beautiful.
I'd say the one that stood out for me the most was Euron. I know not many like him because he's different from the book version, but there is a craziness there beneath the surface. It's in his smile and how unafraid he is. When the Mountain stepped forward, he didn't show fear. He seemed intrigued. Lack of fear can sometimes denote madness. It also helped the actor was absolutely loving every second as Euron. You can always tell when an actor loves their part. However good Stannis was, it was obvious the actor wasn't fond of the show or what he was doing. Euron's actor loves it and I love seeing him onscreen.
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Post by moiaf on Jul 17, 2017 9:06:03 GMT -5
I loved it. I loved it so much. I was surprised by how much I enjoyed Euron, he may not be as dark as his book counterpart but he surely has a crazy vibe. Everything the Hound was amazing. Everything Littlefinger was creepy. Also enjoyed Thoros and Beric, with the Hound they form an interesting trio. Sansa, the Hound, Arya and Euron had some of the best lines ever. And the dialogue seemed so tight. Also Jaimie, "Queen of Three Kingdoms" line Jaimie might have, finally, started to see just how damaged Cersei is. He was reluctant and vary more than a few times around her. I have no problem with Sansa speaking her mind, if Lyanna Mormont is allowed to, so is Lady Sansa Stark. It would be wiser if she and Jon discussed such matters in advance though, between the two of them, or if Jon does not want her advice, at all, he should ban her from meetings. Even better if Jon formed a small council with trusted advisors, unless the hall full of Lords is supposed to be that.I see the logic behind Jon and Sansa reasoning, it fits their characters, both in how they wished to deal with the turncloaks and how they prioritiz e one enemy over the other. Jon might have a bit of a tunnel vision there, but it's only natural, considering he has not dealt with Cersei or the other masterminds and the NK, surely, is a force to be terrified of. Plus, I think that Jon is very confident the Kindom will stand together against the WW, it's the only logical move to survive them, the Northerners and Wildlings managed to work together after all...still Jon does not know Cersei. I can't help but feel Jon was a bit of a jerk to Sansa after the ruling. He wasn't wrong, asking her to not contradict him in public but the way he went about it felt very unJon to me. The cold opening was absolutely amazing and stole the show... almost. As for me the most touching, emotional, powerful moment was Daenerys arriving at Dragonstone, it was such a solemn scene, like the fulfillment of a promise, I loved Dragonstone and the absence of dialogue, my favorite part was Daenerys touching the sand, a small gesture charged with meaning. Also interesting to notice how Daenerys never goes for the Throne. She did it in the HotU vision and again in Dragonstone, she skips the Throne to take on other matters. And no, I do not think this to be foreshadowing of Daenerys not ruling in the end (not saying that she will or that she will not), I think this to be a testament to the fact that she is a dynamic active force that she is not after the Throne for the Throne sake. She is a rescuer first and foremost, My problem with Sansa behavior at the hall was that it undermines her brother's authority. When Lyanna spoke up at the hall is was to support Jon and to backup his command, while Sansa with her action undermined it. That's not to say I disagree with her opinion, I think had they been in a different situation her approach would be the correct one. However, given the situation they are in Jon's approach, I thought, was correct. However, if she disagrees with Jon she should do it in private. Or if she feels an overwhelming unstoppable need to give her opinion, she should give it and then keep quiet not continue arguing it. For someone supposedly learning the politics of the game, it was not a good move.
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Post by Lils on Jul 17, 2017 9:15:35 GMT -5
I loved it. I loved it so much. I was surprised by how much I enjoyed Euron, he may not be as dark as his book counterpart but he surely has a crazy vibe. Everything the Hound was amazing. Everything Littlefinger was creepy. Also enjoyed Thoros and Beric, with the Hound they form an interesting trio. Sansa, the Hound, Arya and Euron had some of the best lines ever. And the dialogue seemed so tight. Also Jaimie, "Queen of Three Kingdoms" line Jaimie might have, finally, started to see just how damaged Cersei is. He was reluctant and vary more than a few times around her. I have no problem with Sansa speaking her mind, if Lyanna Mormont is allowed to, so is Lady Sansa Stark. It would be wiser if she and Jon discussed such matters in advance though, between the two of them, or if Jon does not want her advice, at all, he should ban her from meetings. Even better if Jon formed a small council with trusted advisors, unless the hall full of Lords is supposed to be that.I see the logic behind Jon and Sansa reasoning, it fits their characters, both in how they wished to deal with the turncloaks and how they prioritiz e one enemy over the other. Jon might have a bit of a tunnel vision there, but it's only natural, considering he has not dealt with Cersei or the other masterminds and the NK, surely, is a force to be terrified of. Plus, I think that Jon is very confident the Kindom will stand together against the WW, it's the only logical move to survive them, the Northerners and Wildlings managed to work together after all...still Jon does not know Cersei. I can't help but feel Jon was a bit of a jerk to Sansa after the ruling. He wasn't wrong, asking her to not contradict him in public but the way he went about it felt very unJon to me. The cold opening was absolutely amazing and stole the show... almost. As for me the most touching, emotional, powerful moment was Daenerys arriving at Dragonstone, it was such a solemn scene, like the fulfillment of a promise, I loved Dragonstone and the absence of dialogue, my favorite part was Daenerys touching the sand, a small gesture charged with meaning. Also interesting to notice how Daenerys never goes for the Throne. She did it in the HotU vision and again in Dragonstone, she skips the Throne to take on other matters. And no, I do not think this to be foreshadowing of Daenerys not ruling in the end (not saying that she will or that she will not), I think this to be a testament to the fact that she is a dynamic active force that she is not after the Throne for the Throne sake. She is a rescuer first and foremost, My problem with Sansa behavior at the hall was that it undermines her brother's authority. When Lyanna spoke up at the hall is was to support Jon and to backup his command, while Sansa with her action undermined it. That's not to say I disagree with her opinion, I think had they been in a different situation her approach would be the correct one. However, given the situation they are in Jon's approach, I thought, was correct. However, if she disagrees with Jon she should do it in private. Or if she feels an overwhelming unstoppable need to give her opinion, she should give it and then keep quiet not continue arguing it. For someone supposedly learning the politics of the game, it was not a good move. Sansa's opinion wasn't wrong, but I think she fails to grasp that the situation has changed from how things were done before and how they are done now. That's not her failing, she hasn't seen the threat. Her storyline has been in power schemes. It makes sense her first concern would be Cersei. Whereas with Jon, he's seen the NK. He's like the audience, we all know that Cersei doesn't matter in the end. But I do think Sansa is right and Jon shouldn't ignore what a threat Cersei could be. The High Sparrow did that and he was killed. Sansa had a few moments that were a bit too out of line for me. I absolutely think she should council and give her opinion, but that wasn't the time or place. Interjecting is one thing, but it seemed like she was trying to exert her own authority and diminish Jon's, which is precarious to begin with. The two of them need to have a pre audience meeting to discuss things and air out their arguments then, that way when they are in the Great Hall, they are a collective front. There is a part of me that feels she hasn't quite grasped the lesson of manipulating from behind the scenes, something she has seen LF do extremely well and with great results. Her behavior was a bit more akin to Cersei in council meetings. Which was a nice nod later to when she said she understood Cersei. I think at this point, if anyone understands what Cersei feels about being a woman denied power, it would be Sansa. The only other thing that stuck out to me as a really harsh move was nearly comparing Jon to Joffery.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 9:17:52 GMT -5
I loved it. I loved it so much. I was surprised by how much I enjoyed Euron, he may not be as dark as his book counterpart but he surely has a crazy vibe. Everything the Hound was amazing. Everything Littlefinger was creepy. Also enjoyed Thoros and Beric, with the Hound they form an interesting trio. Sansa, the Hound, Arya and Euron had some of the best lines ever. And the dialogue seemed so tight. Also Jaimie, "Queen of Three Kingdoms" line Jaimie might have, finally, started to see just how damaged Cersei is. He was reluctant and vary more than a few times around her. I have no problem with Sansa speaking her mind, if Lyanna Mormont is allowed to, so is Lady Sansa Stark. It would be wiser if she and Jon discussed such matters in advance though, between the two of them, or if Jon does not want her advice, at all, he should ban her from meetings. Even better if Jon formed a small council with trusted advisors, unless the hall full of Lords is supposed to be that.I see the logic behind Jon and Sansa reasoning, it fits their characters, both in how they wished to deal with the turncloaks and how they prioritiz e one enemy over the other. Jon might have a bit of a tunnel vision there, but it's only natural, considering he has not dealt with Cersei or the other masterminds and the NK, surely, is a force to be terrified of. Plus, I think that Jon is very confident the Kindom will stand together against the WW, it's the only logical move to survive them, the Northerners and Wildlings managed to work together after all...still Jon does not know Cersei. I can't help but feel Jon was a bit of a jerk to Sansa after the ruling. He wasn't wrong, asking her to not contradict him in public but the way he went about it felt very unJon to me. The cold opening was absolutely amazing and stole the show... almost. As for me the most touching, emotional, powerful moment was Daenerys arriving at Dragonstone, it was such a solemn scene, like the fulfillment of a promise, I loved Dragonstone and the absence of dialogue, my favorite part was Daenerys touching the sand, a small gesture charged with meaning. Also interesting to notice how Daenerys never goes for the Throne. She did it in the HotU vision and again in Dragonstone, she skips the Throne to take on other matters. And no, I do not think this to be foreshadowing of Daenerys not ruling in the end (not saying that she will or that she will not), I think this to be a testament to the fact that she is a dynamic active force that she is not after the Throne for the Throne sake. She is a rescuer first and foremost, My problem with Sansa behavior at the hall was that it undermines her brother's authority. When Lyanna spoke up at the hall is was to support Jon and to backup his command, while Sansa with her action undermined it. That's not to say I disagree with her opinion, I think had they been in a different situation her approach would be the correct one. However, given the situation they are in Jon's approach, I thought, was correct. However, if she disagrees with Jon she should do it in private. Or if she feels an overwhelming unstoppable need to give her opinion, she should give it and then keep quiet not continue arguing it. For someone supposedly learning the politics of the game, it was not a good move. I just created a thread about this (we could move the discussion there? ). As I said in the thread, I do think you are right about Sansa undermining Jon. But then I also think that Jon is doing what he always does: making a decision on his own without talking it through with his advisors. What Sansa said got a lot of support in the room. Jon should have foreseen this and considered his people's opinion first. I agree that Sansa needs to wait until she is alone with him before voicing her criticism. But then Jon should also involve her in his decision-making BEFORE announcing it to the lords and ladies. He could have talked this through with her first (maybe with Davos too). He didn't do that. A smart ruler should try to appease his advisors and people and have a general idea what their opinions are. Jon doesn't really care about that. He made it clear that to him it's his decision alone, which is the sort of behaviour that caused him to have trouble in the past. So yes, Sansa needs to learn how not do undermine Jon. But Jon needs to be a smarter ruler.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 9:18:57 GMT -5
My problem with Sansa behavior at the hall was that it undermines her brother's authority. When Lyanna spoke up at the hall is was to support Jon and to backup his command, while Sansa with her action undermined it. That's not to say I disagree with her opinion, I think had they been in a different situation her approach would be the correct one. However, given the situation they are in Jon's approach, I thought, was correct. However, if she disagrees with Jon she should do it in private. Or if she feels an overwhelming unstoppable need to give her opinion, she should give it and then keep quiet not continue arguing it. For someone supposedly learning the politics of the game, it was not a good move. The only other thing that stuck out to me as a really harsh move was nearly comparing Jon to Joffery. And then Jon nearly compared her to Cersei. Both of them didn't mean it.
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Post by Lils on Jul 17, 2017 9:22:12 GMT -5
The only other thing that stuck out to me as a really harsh move was nearly comparing Jon to Joffery. And then Jon nearly compared her to Cersei. Both of them didn't mean it. Did he? I might have missed that? Or was it the "You almost sound like you admire her"?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 9:24:56 GMT -5
And then Jon nearly compared her to Cersei. Both of them didn't mean it. Did he? I might have missed that? Or was it the "You almost sound like you admire her"? That was it. It's not quite as direct as what she said, but admiration usually involves wanting to be like someone. It's a subtle comparison and definitely deliberate on the writers's part. It mirrors what she said about Joffrey and Jon a few minutes before that line.
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