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Post by sercreighton on Aug 15, 2017 0:05:58 GMT -5
Just took a look at r/asoiaf and it's just a complete Youtube critics like CinemaSins have completely ruined online criticism. Now a nitpick is seemingly all someone needs to disprove something's artistic merits. Like when people say "In the Lord of the Rings they should've just flown the eagles to Mount Doom and dropped the Ring in", as if that has anything to do with how good the story is. If storytelling was based purely on which plan makes the most logistical sense it would be boring as fuck. And characters having a flawed plan doesn't mean the storytelling itself is flawed either. But now people think you can just list quibbles without considering contextual explanations and counterarguments and voila, they get a top post or top thread thanks to their purist confirmation-bias. They also seem to intensely hate anything that is implied to have occurred offscreen. They're going "how does Tyrion know Jaime's alive?" as if that's a substantial critique. I dunno, maybe they fucking looked in the water and didn't see him? As they would do knowing what an important captive he'd be? And why didn't we see Tyrion going to KL being planned or a raven being sent to Bronn...because then we'd know how things would play out instead of having any sense of tension in the sequence. I mean obviously if you want to go into the merits of how scenes play, are shot and directed, edited and are acted that's one thing. And then writing too, if they actually analyzed dialogue and the story purposes of various scenes. But instead they just use little meme-ified catchphrases and lines to demean shit without meaningful analysis to self-congratulate one another that they're these great critics when really they just make surface level out-of-context observations and sprinkle them together. Of course this doesn't just apply to this fandom. Most forced contrarian online types do the same shit. But it aggravates me to no end because people are gravitating more and more towards this kind of shit than reading real reviews. Hey self important people doing self important things, is very important. Just ask them. Of course purists are nitpicking, they're a large group of people and most of them had no idea what they were reading and now they realize their 10 year thesis on point to point travel times in the seven kingdoms, or one of the many theories titled "Proof blah blah blah" were actually just proof that they were idiots waisting their time who somehow thought they unlocked the secret heart of the books and gave a meaningful contribution to society. Now they must lash out at that which scorned them. "This episode is stupid, Tyrionshair is clearly not White blonde and black. It's nothing compared to my Theory Khal Ned,Cabot how Ned and Drogo are one and the same. D&D are hacks, I just know it will be in the books." That is an actual theory, an actual complaint, and an actual statment all from the same person. I just combined them. Think about this way, wait till they find out that their friends, family and everyone else on the planet actually continues doing stuff when they are not watching. Wait the universe doesn't revolve around me and stop when I am not watching? When the hell did this happen? Wait they do shit off screen? What? What were they doing, I have to know travel times, it's very important.
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nikma
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Post by nikma on Aug 15, 2017 2:15:43 GMT -5
Weiss really have a good point about not listening to criticisms. He said people will love you and hate for the same things (different people ofc. For some it will always be too slow and for some too rushed. Even this season there were people who thought the first 3 episodes were too slow.
The point is, the same scene or character will cause completely different reaction and if you start listening to people for advice it will just create chaos in your head.
I'm happy that I'm happy with this show. I don't have to pretend that I like it. I stoped watching House of Cards and Mr. Robot because I stoped liking those shows. It's easy.
Some people just act like they are in a abusive relationship with this show, like they can't stop.
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Post by nikma on Aug 15, 2017 2:19:11 GMT -5
I will add this, no matter how insine some people on r/asoif are, there is more understanding and support for D&D now than it was during S4.
Even the biggest rant threads have very popular comments defending then.
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Nezzer
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Post by Nezzer on Aug 15, 2017 4:08:54 GMT -5
The only thing that really pisses me off is the rushed character interactions. We had Tyrion, Jaime and Bronn in the same room and Tyrion's entire conversation with Jaime was offscreen, and not a single word was exchanged between Tyrion and Bronn. We could've had a fantastic 10 min long scene between the three of them, but no let's put aside the very thing that made GoT so great for the sake of moving the plot forward. What a waste.
Same thing with Jon, Jorah and Gendry, but not as bad as that one. They must've spent at least a week on the sea travelling to the Wall, plenty of oportunities for some interactions. Gendry had so much to talk to Jon about Arya and Jon had a lot to discuss with Jorah about Jeor, Lyanna and his sword. Hopefully we're getting something next episode, but they just spent several days together without having a single conversation. I'm okay with ignoring travel scenes between characters that are familiar with each other, but they shouldn't have done that when it's a bunch of people who never interacted before travelling together.
A year ago, when we got the news, I loathed this fucking decision of making the final two seasons so much shorter, and now I hate it even more, absolutely terrible decision. We could have easily had this season properly spread out through ten episodes and most of its problems would've gone away. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving this season thus far, but the character development this year has been really weak, it's been put aside to make room for the plot to move forward. That's the main reason why this season won't top season 4 as my favorite, no matter how good the next two episodes turn out to be, and it's all because of D&D's decision to wrap it up as fast as possible, just as I feared.
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Post by konradsmith on Aug 15, 2017 4:29:11 GMT -5
The only thing that really pisses me off is the rushed character interactions. We had Tyrion, Jaime and Bronn in the same room and Tyrion's entire conversation with Jaime was offscreen, and not a single word was exchanged between Tyrion and Bronn. We could've had a fantastic 10 min long scene between the three of them, but no let's put aside the very thing that made GoT so great for the sake of moving the plot forward. What a waste. Same thing with Jon, Jorah and Gendry, but not as bad as that one. They must've spent at least a week on the sea travelling to the Wall, plenty of oportunities for some interactions. Gendry had so much to talk to Jon about Arya and Jon had a lot to discuss with Jorah about Jeor, Lyanna and his sword. Hopefully we're getting something next episode, but they just spent several days together without having a single conversation. I'm okay with ignoring travel scenes between characters that are familiar with each other, but they shouldn't have done that when it's a bunch of people who never interacted before travelling together. A year ago, when we got the news, I loathed this fucking decision of making the final two seasons so much shorter, and now I hate it even more, absolutely terrible decision. We could have easily had this season properly spread out through ten episodes and most of its problems would've gone away. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving this season thus far, but the character development this year has been really weak, it's been put aside to make room for the plot to move forward. That's the main reason why this season won't top season 4 as my favorite, no matter how good the next two episodes turn out to be, and it's all because of D&D's decision to wrap it up as fast as possible, just as I feared. I think this season could've maybe managed one more episode. But I can't see ten working for the arcs we're getting here. That would require too much padding. Obviously a lot of the decision came down to budgeting and how much the main cast are demanding now per episode (a fuckton). But much of it was how much story there was left to tell. But shortened seasons never bugged me. As a matter of fact, I wish that some past seasons had been shorter, s2 and s3 in particular because they had so much strong material being averaged down by dud scenes that did nothing but tread water. Those seasons could be re-edited into 10/10s imo. But we got what we got. I think those ones could've probably done better in seven episodes than s7 is. Because I think some of the material in this ep. in particular should've been given a bit more room to breathe, even if that meant just putting some of the scenes in 704 (given how short it was) and letting them set in more for the audience rather than actually adding on another episode. Character moments and character development are one thing but then are things like Tyrion and Shae arguing for the fortieth time about their relationship status. Personally I'll accept as many episodes as we get whenever we get them. By and large the ten episode formula worked really well. But I get why scaling back would have its appeal. Writing-wise and production-wise. Knowing the season's whole plot, I think ten episodes would fatten it up needlessly (if we want to discuss that in-depth beat-by-beat there's the LEAKBOWL). But then, yes, a lot of the moments in Eastwatch would've landed better with more time to settle for the audience. I still felt it got across what it needed to though by now. But we can be more sure once we've seen how the last two eps. play.
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Nezzer
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Post by Nezzer on Aug 15, 2017 4:37:44 GMT -5
The only thing that really pisses me off is the rushed character interactions. We had Tyrion, Jaime and Bronn in the same room and Tyrion's entire conversation with Jaime was offscreen, and not a single word was exchanged between Tyrion and Bronn. We could've had a fantastic 10 min long scene between the three of them, but no let's put aside the very thing that made GoT so great for the sake of moving the plot forward. What a waste. Same thing with Jon, Jorah and Gendry, but not as bad as that one. They must've spent at least a week on the sea travelling to the Wall, plenty of oportunities for some interactions. Gendry had so much to talk to Jon about Arya and Jon had a lot to discuss with Jorah about Jeor, Lyanna and his sword. Hopefully we're getting something next episode, but they just spent several days together without having a single conversation. I'm okay with ignoring travel scenes between characters that are familiar with each other, but they shouldn't have done that when it's a bunch of people who never interacted before travelling together. A year ago, when we got the news, I loathed this fucking decision of making the final two seasons so much shorter, and now I hate it even more, absolutely terrible decision. We could have easily had this season properly spread out through ten episodes and most of its problems would've gone away. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving this season thus far, but the character development this year has been really weak, it's been put aside to make room for the plot to move forward. That's the main reason why this season won't top season 4 as my favorite, no matter how good the next two episodes turn out to be, and it's all because of D&D's decision to wrap it up as fast as possible, just as I feared. I think this season could've maybe managed one more episode. But I can't see ten working for the arcs we're getting here. That would require too much padding. Obviously a lot of the decision came down to budgeting and how much the main cast are demanding now per episode (a fuckton). But much of it was how much story there was left to tell. But shortened seasons never bugged me. As a matter of fact, I wish that some past seasons had been shorter, s2 and s3 in particular because they had so much strong material being averaged down by dud scenes that did nothing but tread water. Those seasons could be re-edited into 10/10s imo. But we got what we got. I think those ones could've probably done better in seven episodes than s7 is. Because I think some of the material in this ep. in particular should've been given a bit more room to breathe, even if that meant just putting some of the scenes in 704 (given how short it was) and letting them set in more for the audience rather than actually adding on another episode. Character moments and character development are one thing but then are things like Tyrion and Shae arguing for the fortieth time about their relationship status. Personally I'll accept as many episodes as we get whenever we get them. By and large the ten episode formula worked really well. But I get why scaling back would have its appeal. Writing-wise and production-wise. Knowing the season's whole plot, I think ten episodes would fatten it up needlessly (if we want to discuss that in-depth beat-by-beat there's the LEAKBOWL). But then, yes, a lot of the moments in Eastwatch would've landed better with more time to settle for the audience. I still felt it got across what it needed to though by now. But we can be more sure once we've seen how the last two eps. play. Good points in bold, don't even remind me of Shae. Still, we could use some proper balance instead of throwing character moments completely out the window. I'd forgive that if it were only secondary characters like Grey Worm and Missandei talking less, but when it's main characters like Jaime and Tyrion being refused a proper reunion scene - well, that's just annoying as fuck and a big fucking shame.
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Post by konradsmith on Aug 15, 2017 4:43:19 GMT -5
I think this season could've maybe managed one more episode. But I can't see ten working for the arcs we're getting here. That would require too much padding. Obviously a lot of the decision came down to budgeting and how much the main cast are demanding now per episode (a fuckton). But much of it was how much story there was left to tell. But shortened seasons never bugged me. As a matter of fact, I wish that some past seasons had been shorter, s2 and s3 in particular because they had so much strong material being averaged down by dud scenes that did nothing but tread water. Those seasons could be re-edited into 10/10s imo. But we got what we got. I think those ones could've probably done better in seven episodes than s7 is. Because I think some of the material in this ep. in particular should've been given a bit more room to breathe, even if that meant just putting some of the scenes in 704 (given how short it was) and letting them set in more for the audience rather than actually adding on another episode. Character moments and character development are one thing but then are things like Tyrion and Shae arguing for the fortieth time about their relationship status. Personally I'll accept as many episodes as we get whenever we get them. By and large the ten episode formula worked really well. But I get why scaling back would have its appeal. Writing-wise and production-wise. Knowing the season's whole plot, I think ten episodes would fatten it up needlessly (if we want to discuss that in-depth beat-by-beat there's the LEAKBOWL). But then, yes, a lot of the moments in Eastwatch would've landed better with more time to settle for the audience. I still felt it got across what it needed to though by now. But we can be more sure once we've seen how the last two eps. play. Good points in bold, don't even remind me of Shae. Still, we could use some proper balance instead of throwing character moments completely out the window. I'd forgive that if it were only secondary characters like Grey Worm and Missandei talking less, but when it's main characters like Jaime and Tyrion being refused a proper reunion scene - well, that's just annoying as fuck and a big fucking shame. I think the Tyrion and Jaime moment worked well enough. They had to keep the plan itself offscreen so as to make the Cersei-Jaime scene work better later. But giving it more wordless moments of the two just looking at one another and perhaps some more debate would've made what we got work better. Dinklage and NCW still knocked it out of the park though IMO. I agree there should've been more acknowledgement between Tyrion of Bronn, even just a meaningful nod or glance could've conveyed all that needed saying...but I suspect such a moment is forthcoming.
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Nezzer
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Post by Nezzer on Aug 15, 2017 4:45:42 GMT -5
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Post by konradsmith on Aug 15, 2017 4:47:24 GMT -5
Y'all gotta put that shit in Tetris terms for me to get it.
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Nezzer
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Post by Nezzer on Aug 15, 2017 4:56:15 GMT -5
Y'all gotta put that shit in Tetris terms for me to get it. I tried coming up with something literally in Tetris terms, but it didn't work out. I actually suck at analogies
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Post by konradsmith on Aug 15, 2017 5:01:21 GMT -5
Y'all gotta put that shit in Tetris terms for me to get it. I tried coming up with something literally in Tetris terms, but it didn't work out. I actually suck at analogies Tetris. The best Russian export since Mussorgsky.
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Post by motherofmountains on Aug 15, 2017 5:08:10 GMT -5
I think it's a general problem with plot from the books. After 4000 pages there's still loads left to write.
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Nezzer
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Post by Nezzer on Aug 15, 2017 5:15:54 GMT -5
I think it's a general problem with plot from the books. After 4000 pages there's still loads left to write.
Like someone said in the comments, the books have the exact opposite problem. And honestly, I think that problem is much worse, at least the show's getting an ending unlike the books
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 5:28:21 GMT -5
And then it's also a terribly subjective thing. Season 4 was mentioned as a positive example. Yes, there may be more character development (as in pure quantity of scenes), but S4 is the season that I personally have the most problems with in terms of HOW characters are written (quality-wise). Ngl if I had been given the chance, I would have rewritten half of S4's scripts. I definitely prefer S7's "to the point" writing over S4's several fuck-ups. But of course this is entirely subjective as I've mentioned. The things that are fuck-ups to me are not fuck-ups to you.
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Post by breakfest on Aug 15, 2017 5:29:14 GMT -5
There's so many complex relationships in the show, with people who knew each other's father's sister's cousins, that you could make a whole seven episode season out of them hashing this out and sharing stories. But that would be boring as fuck. I agree that there could have been more acknowledgement of the shared history between characters, especially Tyrion and Bronn which was a major oversight, but honestly there's been nothing to seriously impact the season as a whole. This last episode was the only one that was splitting at the seams, and that's mainly because of the insufficient explanation for the wight hunt needing to happen. With two massive episodes to come we've yet to see most of the payoff to many seemingly brief early moments. Tyrion and Jaime, for example, will surely share the screen again.
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