Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
11
0
May 2, 2024 16:22:23 GMT -5
Deleted
0
May 2, 2024 16:22:23 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2017 10:06:53 GMT -5
I think it's necessary. There are hundreds and hundreds of thousands of wights, it is physically impossible for them to them all individually. This. Besides, it should always be about execution first and foremost IMO. What makes the trope so cheap in the first place is that it's often too easy to kill the big bad. But if there is real struggle there and people actually die while doing it, then I don't see the problem. No trope is inherently lazy, only the way it is executed. You know, there are various ways of subverting expectations and deconstructing tropes. Sometimes they go for the exact opposite of what people expect as they have often done on this show. And sometimes they go for existing tropes, but try to depict them in a more realistic and imperfect way as they have also often done. The thing is: stories that make use of this particular trope often miss instances of real failure and loss. If they add these elements to this old trope, then I don't see how it's still the same thing. It becomes something new.
|
|
alcasinoroyale
King of Winter
@alcasinoroyale
Posts: 5,387
Likes: 7,621
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#021f7c
5
0
1
Aug 26, 2022 20:49:12 GMT -5
7,621
alcasinoroyale
5,387
Jun 21, 2016 11:59:24 GMT -5
June 2016
alcasinoroyale
4 Time Winner
|
Post by alcasinoroyale on Sept 3, 2017 10:24:52 GMT -5
It's still cheap in the sense that it's an incredibly lazy and overused fantasy trope, kill the big bad guy and all his minions die with him. Can't say I love the idea. I guess it depends on the execution as @kairos said, but how do you think the NK and the army of the dead should be destroyed?
|
|
Envie
Vhagar
"If I look back I am lost."
@envie
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 8,484
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
inherit
4
0
Jul 4, 2019 18:53:32 GMT -5
8,484
Envie
"If I look back I am lost."
5,270
Jun 21, 2016 11:00:44 GMT -5
June 2016
envie
1 Time Winner
|
Post by Envie on Sept 3, 2017 10:55:49 GMT -5
It's still cheap in the sense that it's an incredibly lazy and overused fantasy trope, kill the big bad guy and all his minions die with him. Can't say I love the idea. I guess it depends on the execution as @kairos said, but how do you think the NK and the army of the dead should be destroyed? I think the other overused in fantasy ending is "someone has to die and sacrifice themself to kill the big bad guy..." so unless GRRM has something really clever in mind, it's probably going to happen one way or another like other fantasy endings. It wasn't until they purposely added that scene in 7x06 where all the minions of the White Walker crumbled around him when Jon killed him (and both Jorah and Beric pointed it out) that I felt like that was definitely looking like the key to ending The Night King.
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on Sept 3, 2017 11:05:57 GMT -5
I guess it depends on the execution as @kairos said, but how do you think the NK and the army of the dead should be destroyed? I think the other overused in fantasy ending is "someone has to die and sacrifice themself to kill the big bad guy..." so unless GRRM has something really clever in mind, it's probably going to happen one way or another like other fantasy endings. It wasn't until they purposely added that scene in 7x06 where all the minions of the White Walker crumbled around him when Jon killed him (and both Jorah and Beric pointed it out) that I felt like that was definitely looking like the key to ending The Night King. I always thought that this would be the ending for the wights. It seemed clear to me that the NK was a skin-changer who was skin changing the dead, that's why I have described him as a slaver of the dead. The dead aren't doing this because they want to, they are being made to do it. There might be more to it, but it's probably related to the NK himself, perhaps he's connected to something else, something we haven't thought about.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
11
0
May 2, 2024 16:22:23 GMT -5
Deleted
0
May 2, 2024 16:22:23 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2017 11:10:51 GMT -5
I guess it depends on the execution as @kairos said, but how do you think the NK and the army of the dead should be destroyed? I think the other overused in fantasy ending is "someone has to die and sacrifice themself to kill the big bad guy..." so unless GRRM has something really clever in mind, it's probably going to happen one way or another like other fantasy endings. It wasn't until they purposely added that scene in 7x06 where all the minions of the White Walker crumbled around him when Jon killed him (and both Jorah and Beric pointed it out) that I felt like that was definitely looking like the key to ending The Night King. Completely avoiding tropes is impossible. I agree. I'm a fan of deconstructing tropes obviously and it's one of the main reasons why I love this series, but even I have to admit that almost EVERYTHING is a trope nowadays. For example having a character die and bringing them back as a better version of themselves (Gandalf) is a trope that GRRM tried to subvert. We know this, because he has talked about it a lot in interviews. It's a "trope" that can even be found in the bible ffs. So GRRM is not wrong about this. But then bringing back characters as a more evil/more crazy version of themselves is also a trope of its own. There are so many stories that have dead characters coming back as more evil. So by trying to deconstruct one trope, he used a different one. But you know what? I love Gandalf the White and I love Lady Stoneheart. I can appreciate both, because as I said, it comes down to execution. By the way: not bringing back Gandalf AT ALL, would also have been a trope ("the hero that loses his innocence because his mentor dies"). So there would have been no way to escape the usage of tropes. Unless he didn't die at all, but then the story would be missing tragedy.
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on Sept 3, 2017 11:12:59 GMT -5
I think it's necessary. There are hundreds and hundreds of thousands of wights, it is physically impossible for them to them all individually. This. Besides, it should always be about execution first and foremost IMO. What makes the trope so cheap in the first place is that it's often too easy to kill the big bad. But if there is real struggle there and people actually die while doing it, then I don't see the problem. No trope is inherently lazy, only the way it is executed. You know, there are various ways of subverting expectations and deconstructing tropes. Sometimes they go for the exact opposite of what people expect as they have often done on this show. And sometimes they go for existing tropes, but try to depict them in a more realistic and imperfect way as they have also often done. The thing is: stories that make use of this particular trope often miss instances of real failure and loss. If they add these elements to this old trope, then I don't see how it's still the same thing. It becomes something new. ASOIAF is full of tropes, sometimes they are subverted and sometimes they are not as you say. You can't break all the tropes because then it would become a giant mess, tropes exist for a reason, they work. Like you say, it's all in the execution. I expected that this is how it was going to end with the wights, the NK is clearly skin-changing them, at least the vast majority. I think where we are going to see a change is that the NK, as bad as he is, won't be the final bad guy. I think in the end the final bad guy might be Cersei and Euron, still trying to hold on to power as the whole world is trying to hold on to life. Showing that no matter what, people are people, and some will take advantage of any situation no matter how dire to take and maintain power.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
11
0
May 2, 2024 16:22:23 GMT -5
Deleted
0
May 2, 2024 16:22:23 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2017 11:14:56 GMT -5
This. Besides, it should always be about execution first and foremost IMO. What makes the trope so cheap in the first place is that it's often too easy to kill the big bad. But if there is real struggle there and people actually die while doing it, then I don't see the problem. No trope is inherently lazy, only the way it is executed. You know, there are various ways of subverting expectations and deconstructing tropes. Sometimes they go for the exact opposite of what people expect as they have often done on this show. And sometimes they go for existing tropes, but try to depict them in a more realistic and imperfect way as they have also often done. The thing is: stories that make use of this particular trope often miss instances of real failure and loss. If they add these elements to this old trope, then I don't see how it's still the same thing. It becomes something new. ASOIAF is full of tropes, sometimes they are subverted and sometimes they are not as you say. You can't break all the tropes because then it would become a giant mess, tropes exist for a reason, they work. Like you say, it's all in the execution. I expected that this is how it was going to end with the wights, the NK is clearly skin-changing them, at least the vast majority. I think where we are going to see a change is that the NK, as bad as he is, won't be the final bad guy. I think in the end the final bad guy might be Cersei and Euron, still trying to hold on to power as the whole world is trying to hold on to life. Showing that no matter what, people are people, and some will take advantage of any situation no matter how dire to take and maintain power. I wholeheartedly agree with your entire post and I would love to see this story end like this.
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on Sept 3, 2017 11:20:45 GMT -5
ASOIAF is full of tropes, sometimes they are subverted and sometimes they are not as you say. You can't break all the tropes because then it would become a giant mess, tropes exist for a reason, they work. Like you say, it's all in the execution. I expected that this is how it was going to end with the wights, the NK is clearly skin-changing them, at least the vast majority. I think where we are going to see a change is that the NK, as bad as he is, won't be the final bad guy. I think in the end the final bad guy might be Cersei and Euron, still trying to hold on to power as the whole world is trying to hold on to life. Showing that no matter what, people are people, and some will take advantage of any situation no matter how dire to take and maintain power. I wholeheartedly agree with your entire post and I would love to see this story ending like this. We are literally living through this in our world. It sad and the worst part is that way too many people are still okay with this. As long as it doesn't affect them they want a path to power to always be opened to them. As for the series, for the longest time I thought the Others would be the last big bad, but as it became clear that the human villains weren't going to be killed off so easily, then it made sense that the Game of Thrones would be never ending, because some people can't let go of power, no matter the greater good.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
29
0
May 2, 2024 16:22:23 GMT -5
Deleted
0
May 2, 2024 16:22:23 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2017 11:32:12 GMT -5
Y'know... the Many-Faced Bowl could totally still happen. Queenbowl, Stormbowl, Greybowl 2, Monsterbowl and Cleganebowl. All the pieces are there! Necessary update for Season 8!
|
|
inherit
57
0
Feb 17, 2019 21:03:02 GMT -5
1,038
Lady Sansa's Direwolf
Livin' and Dyin' in 3/4 Time
836
Jul 11, 2016 17:32:57 GMT -5
July 2016
ladysansasdirewolf
|
Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Sept 3, 2017 11:44:59 GMT -5
I think the other overused in fantasy ending is "someone has to die and sacrifice themself to kill the big bad guy..." so unless GRRM has something really clever in mind, it's probably going to happen one way or another like other fantasy endings. It wasn't until they purposely added that scene in 7x06 where all the minions of the White Walker crumbled around him when Jon killed him (and both Jorah and Beric pointed it out) that I felt like that was definitely looking like the key to ending The Night King. I always thought that this would be the ending for the wights. It seemed clear to me that the NK was a skin-changer who was skin changing the dead, that's why I have described him as a slaver of the dead. The dead aren't doing this because they want to, they are being made to do it. There might be more to it, but it's probably related to the NK himself, perhaps he's connected to something else, something we haven't thought about. This. They seemed to have a hive mentality to their actions, directed by the WW and their leader the NK. Just like killing fire ants or bees, you have to get rid of the 'queen' before they all die. Only in this case, the NK uses the sons of Craster to help control such a massive number of drones. Also, I do think the NK issue will be resolved before Cersei and Euron are dealt with. I think the NK will be episodes 1-4, Cersei and Euron 5 into 6 with the last portion of 6 the wrap-up. That doesn't mean there won't be scenes with Cersei before 5, just that the battle portion will involve 5 and spill over to end in 6.
|
|
moiaf
Mother of Dragons
@admin
Posts: 6,194
Likes: 6,494
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 4 Time Winner
#9618a9
1
0
1
Apr 29, 2020 17:41:53 GMT -5
6,494
moiaf
6,194
Jun 20, 2016 18:58:43 GMT -5
June 2016
admin
4 Time Winner
|
Post by moiaf on Sept 3, 2017 11:52:52 GMT -5
I always thought that this would be the ending for the wights. It seemed clear to me that the NK was a skin-changer who was skin changing the dead, that's why I have described him as a slaver of the dead. The dead aren't doing this because they want to, they are being made to do it. There might be more to it, but it's probably related to the NK himself, perhaps he's connected to something else, something we haven't thought about. This. They seemed to have a hive mentality to their actions, directed by the WW and their leader the NK. Just like killing fire ants or bees, you have to get rid of the 'queen' before they all die. Only in this case, the NK uses the sons of Craster to help control such a massive number of drones. Also, I do think the NK issue will be resolved before Cersei and Euron are dealt with. I think the NK will be episodes 1-4, Cersei and Euron 5 into 6 with the last portion of 6 the wrap-up. That doesn't mean there won't be scenes with Cersei before 5, just that the battle portion will involve 5 and spill over to end in 6. This seems like a reasonable timeline for dealing with these forces. I do think that throughout the season they'll be fighting a war on two fronts. So we might see Jon and Dany focused on the NK and his gang and Tyrion and other focused on Cersei. Making it all even more difficult. Which I think is going to make them all real bitter at the end.
|
|
katjushka
Drogon
@katjushka
Posts: 931
Likes: 1,321
inherit
56
0
Jul 22, 2019 1:49:34 GMT -5
1,321
katjushka
931
Jul 11, 2016 14:24:09 GMT -5
July 2016
katjushka
|
Post by katjushka on Sept 3, 2017 12:35:24 GMT -5
They seemed to have a hive mentality to their actions, directed by the WW and their leader the NK. Just like killing fire ants or bees, you have to get rid of the 'queen' before they all die. Yeah, it's something we see in nature so if it's a fantasy trope then fantasy just stole it from mother earth.
|
|
konradsmith
Investigative Reporter
@konradsmith
Posts: 5,588
Likes: 10,429
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
#005f04
8
0
1
Oct 20, 2022 4:05:45 GMT -5
10,429
konradsmith
5,588
Jun 21, 2016 15:45:28 GMT -5
June 2016
konradsmith
1 Time Winner
|
Post by konradsmith on Sept 3, 2017 13:41:17 GMT -5
More generally it'll be great to see strategy come into play in the fight against the wights and WWs. So far every fight with them the humans have been taken unawares and didn't bring flaming arrows or dragonglass-headed arrows with them. But now they could really do some damage against the Army of the Dead. The Unsullied will be particularly effective at standing their ground against them in combat since that's what they do best, lock into formation and withstand waves of enemies. While the Dothraki I think will have much more since trouble their main move, as Bronn said, is "swamping" people while meanwhile riding into the wights ranks would be much less effective and just give the wights more men and horses to use. And then there's all the dragonglass weapons Gendry will be able to make and, with Sam's newfound knowledge, probably Valyrian steel as well. Not to mention the possibility of Bran being able to warg wights and subvert the NK's greenseeing.
That'll all be more interesting than the NK's actual defeat itself. But his defeat ending the threat really is the logical extension of his first appearance in ep. 404 where we first saw he could create WWs and then in 605 where we learned he was the first one and created all the rest. But it'll come after several battles and the loss of probably whole towns and cities, armies and maybe even whole kingdoms, so I doubt it'll feel cheap in the end even if it's an idea that's been seen before. Plus I don't think killing him will be as simple as killing wights and WWs is, since he already has dragonglass in him.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
29
0
May 2, 2024 16:22:23 GMT -5
Deleted
0
May 2, 2024 16:22:23 GMT -5
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2017 14:18:42 GMT -5
More generally it'll be great to see strategy come into play in the fight against the wights and WWs. So far every fight with them the humans have been taken unawares and didn't bring flaming arrows or dragonglass-headed arrows with them. But now they could really do some damage against the Army of the Dead. The Unsullied will be particularly effective at standing their ground against them in combat since that's what they do best, lock into formation and withstand waves of enemies. While the Dothraki I think will have much more since trouble their main move, as Bronn said, is "swamping" people while meanwhile riding into the wights ranks would be much less effective and just give the wights more men and horses to use. And then there's all the dragonglass weapons Gendry will be able to make and, with Sam's newfound knowledge, probably Valyrian steel as well. Not to mention the possibility of Bran being able to warg wights and subvert the NK's greenseeing. That'll all be more interesting than the NK's actual defeat itself. But his defeat ending the threat really is the logical extension of his first appearance in ep. 404 where we first saw he could create WWs and then in 605 where we learned he was the first one and created all the rest. But it'll come after several battles and the loss of probably whole towns and cities, armies and maybe even whole kingdoms, so I doubt it'll feel cheap in the end even if it's an idea that's been seen before. Plus I don't think killing him will be as simple as killing wights and WWs is, since he already has dragonglass in him.That's a good point about him having dragonglass inside. It'd be more interesting if he wasn't as easy to kill as the others because of that, so I'd certainly be on board. But as for the Unsullied, that really depends on the whim of the writer. Sometimes they know about formations, other times...
|
|
konradsmith
Investigative Reporter
@konradsmith
Posts: 5,588
Likes: 10,429
2017 Golden Dragon Awards: 1 Time Winner
#005f04
8
0
1
Oct 20, 2022 4:05:45 GMT -5
10,429
konradsmith
5,588
Jun 21, 2016 15:45:28 GMT -5
June 2016
konradsmith
1 Time Winner
|
Post by konradsmith on Sept 3, 2017 14:30:45 GMT -5
More generally it'll be great to see strategy come into play in the fight against the wights and WWs. So far every fight with them the humans have been taken unawares and didn't bring flaming arrows or dragonglass-headed arrows with them. But now they could really do some damage against the Army of the Dead. The Unsullied will be particularly effective at standing their ground against them in combat since that's what they do best, lock into formation and withstand waves of enemies. While the Dothraki I think will have much more since trouble their main move, as Bronn said, is "swamping" people while meanwhile riding into the wights ranks would be much less effective and just give the wights more men and horses to use. And then there's all the dragonglass weapons Gendry will be able to make and, with Sam's newfound knowledge, probably Valyrian steel as well. Not to mention the possibility of Bran being able to warg wights and subvert the NK's greenseeing. That'll all be more interesting than the NK's actual defeat itself. But his defeat ending the threat really is the logical extension of his first appearance in ep. 404 where we first saw he could create WWs and then in 605 where we learned he was the first one and created all the rest. But it'll come after several battles and the loss of probably whole towns and cities, armies and maybe even whole kingdoms, so I doubt it'll feel cheap in the end even if it's an idea that's been seen before. Plus I don't think killing him will be as simple as killing wights and WWs is, since he already has dragonglass in him.That's a good point about him having dragonglass inside. It'd be more interesting if he wasn't as easy to kill as the others because of that. I'd certainly be on board with that. But as for the Unsullied, that really depends on the whim of the writer. Sometimes they know about formations, other times... I think that was more about them being outnumbered and in very close quarters where their spears were less effective and the SotH having blades that were longer than the Unsullied's shortswords/dagger thingmies. I'll grant you they ought to have fared much better in Daznak's though.
|
|