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Post by Singer of Death on Apr 23, 2019 13:08:56 GMT -5
Something else I noticed was that Daenerys seems to feel lonely and out of place through out the episode, she's confused when even Jon is avoiding her. This was definitely a tough episode for Daenerys. I interpreted the look on her face when she watched Sansa rush to embrace Theon as some realization of how tight-knit this family is, and how out of place she feels there not just because of the Northerners/Targaryen animosity but because of the Starks being very close and loyal to one another which isn't something she's ever known. Sadly, Daenerys grew up only with her brother who obviously wasn't very warm/loving towards her. To top it all off, Jon was strenuously avoiding her because he wasn't ready to talk about what he had just found out about himself yet and this probably made Dany feel even more lonely and out of her element there. It's unfortunate Jon had to find all of this out (and then tell her) at the very last minute before the great war. There was no time to ease Daenerys into his family and work out the relationship issues. This season hasn't been kind to Dany so far. Not only she witnesses the loyalty and familial bond between the the Northerners which she never get to experience, but she's been questioning her life as Emilia Clarke said Dany is experiencing an existential crisis. How much her life is a lie. What's she missing out on ever since Viserys pester her about Westeros and the Targs. To be told she is the rightful person who will restore the Targ dynasty and that people are waiting for this - only for her hope to crash when she saw people aren't waiting for the Targs, she has to fight some zombies unexpectedly to get IT, she learned that her father and Rhaegar aren't good and honorable, and finally the person she loves is the heir to the IT who has better claim than her. How much she missed out is what so painful for her. From her identity as a Targ to as a person. From this, there's a strong parallel to Jon and Dany's identity crisis.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Apr 23, 2019 13:11:02 GMT -5
This hasn't been discussed enough imo - Jon's palpable sense of pride in the scene. That's something you almost never get from Jon. I think people who thought Jon wouldn't care about any of this might be in for a surprise. I'll admit, I never imagined Jon would embrace his true heritage so quickly. I figured it was going to take him a while to brood over it and warm up to the idea once he got over his initial reaction of disbelief that Ned Stark would have 'lied' to him his whole life. I guess he really listened when Sam quickly corrected him and made him understand that Ned's 'lie' was to protect his life. I imagine once he thought it out for awhile, he realized what a huge sacrifice Ned Stark made in keeping that promise to his sister. I guess because there was so very little time before the great war begins, they brought Jon around to acceptance and a little pride in his true identity quickly and especially with Daenerys who he believes in. I think the look he gave her when he realized she was upset about it was a little hurt/confused too. Jon doesn't even want the Iron Throne so it must have stung that she threw that in his face right away. Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with realizing the scope of Ned's sacrifice. And the whole scene took place before Lyanna's statue, almost as if he was seeing/interacting with his mother for the first time. Maybe that's when it all clicked for him. He also knows he might die in a few hours so he has to let the truth wash over him and accept who he really is-there's no time left. No time for brooding or self-doubt. He's riding into this battle as Aegon Targaryen, not Jon Snow - at least that's how I saw it.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Apr 23, 2019 13:21:03 GMT -5
This was definitely a tough episode for Daenerys. I interpreted the look on her face when she watched Sansa rush to embrace Theon as some realization of how tight-knit this family is, and how out of place she feels there not just because of the Northerners/Targaryen animosity but because of the Starks being very close and loyal to one another which isn't something she's ever known. Sadly, Daenerys grew up only with her brother who obviously wasn't very warm/loving towards her. To top it all off, Jon was strenuously avoiding her because he wasn't ready to talk about what he had just found out about himself yet and this probably made Dany feel even more lonely and out of her element there. It's unfortunate Jon had to find all of this out (and then tell her) at the very last minute before the great war. There was no time to ease Daenerys into his family and work out the relationship issues. This season hasn't been kind to Dany so far. Not only she witnesses the loyalty and familial bond between the the Northerners which she never get to experience, but she's been questioning her life as Emilia Clarke said Dany is experiencing an existential crisis. How much her life is a lie. What's she missing out on ever since Viserys pester her about Westeros and the Targs. To be told she is the rightful person who will restore the Targ dynasty and that people are waiting for this - only for her hope to crash when she saw people aren't waiting for the Targs, she has to fight some zombies unexpectedly to get IT, she learned that her father and Rhaegar aren't good and honorable, and finally the person she loves is the heir to the IT who has better claim than her. How much she missed out is what so painful for her. From her identity as a Targ to as a person. From this, there's a strong parallel to Jon and Dany's identity crisis. Dany never struck me as a tragic character until this season. She seems completely lost, not fully understanding but at the same time wanting to be part of the Starks' ideas of family and loyalty. The existential crisis you mention too. But I think above all Dany thrives on the love of the people, and she has found that to be non-existent in Westeros. They fear her and they respect her, but nobody actually wants her there. And that has to hurt.
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Post by konradsmith on Apr 23, 2019 13:32:38 GMT -5
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Post by TheArchmaester on Apr 23, 2019 14:15:42 GMT -5
So we can safely assume Glover is dead, right? If Tormund was right about everyone north of Winterfell being dead...
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Post by iheartseverus on Apr 23, 2019 14:23:23 GMT -5
I saw this posted at another board--did anyone here notice this? I'll have to do another re-watch! (That'll be #4!)
" Both the little girl who Davos speaks with in Ep. 2 and the boy that runs into Winterfell to watch the troops marching at the beginning of Ep. 1 are carrying a leather satchel and wearing a brown cloak.
Could they be little sparrows or Faceless men? The leather bag looks like the one that Arya carries. There is some sort of insignia on the bag that can be seen as the little girl walks away, but it's hard to make out."
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 23, 2019 14:23:25 GMT -5
So we can safely assume Glover is dead, right? If Tormund was right about everyone north of Winterfell being dead... I don't think we'd ever get confirmation one way or the other but I would say that while Deepwood Motte is technically north of Winterfell, the AOTD would have a take a massive detour on their way to WF from The Last Hearth to deal with anyone there, it's pretty far west.
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Post by motherofmountains on Apr 23, 2019 15:09:34 GMT -5
I saw this posted at another board--did anyone here notice this? I'll have to do another re-watch! (That'll be #4!) " Both the little girl who Davos speaks with in Ep. 2 and the boy that runs into Winterfell to watch the troops marching at the beginning of Ep. 1 are carrying a leather satchel and wearing a brown cloak. Could they be little sparrows or Faceless men? The leather bag looks like the one that Arya carries. There is some sort of insignia on the bag that can be seen as the little girl walks away, but it's hard to make out." Yes, interesting, I can't see make out the insignia but they are both carrying similar slim leather satchels that you might carry documents in. Qyburn's Sparrows?
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Post by ladystoneboobs on Apr 23, 2019 17:18:51 GMT -5
I also loved the Jaime-Bran scene. Bran didn't give him the expected "zen" response at all. He flat out told him: "You weren't sorry before" and then proceeded to put the fear of death in him. bran comes off as very passive aggressive. no time for petty grudges but he needed to sit in the cold for a day and a night to freak out jaime on arrival, then makes a point of letting jaime know he remembers now when jaime claims he has nothing to apologize for, then throws jaime's lame sorry in his face and tells him he won't get an afterwards. but no, he's above anger now.
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Post by konradsmith on Apr 23, 2019 18:08:42 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2019 20:27:24 GMT -5
This hasn't been discussed enough imo - Jon's palpable sense of pride in the scene. That's something you almost never get from Jon. I think people who thought Jon wouldn't care about any of this might be in for a surprise. I'll admit, I never imagined Jon would embrace his true heritage so quickly. I figured it was going to take him a while to brood over it and warm up to the idea once he got over his initial reaction of disbelief that Ned Stark would have 'lied' to him his whole life. I guess he really listened when Sam quickly corrected him and made him understand that Ned's 'lie' was to protect his life. I imagine once he thought it out for awhile, he realized what a huge sacrifice Ned Stark made in keeping that promise to his sister. I guess because there was so very little time before the great war begins, they brought Jon around to acceptance and a little pride in his true identity quickly and especially with Daenerys who he believes in. I think the look he gave her when he realized she was upset about it was a little hurt/confused too. Jon doesn't even want the Iron Throne so it must have stung that she threw that in his face right away. I'd prefer too slow build up of Jon embracing his heritage, making peace with his life. They had to move on with it quickly, it's just not enough time to dive into this. It was perhaps rushed like Jon's dragon ride. I guess, they have their own plans and that is his claim to iron thrones we've discussed in other thread. Sort of tying it up into the overall narrative because throne concerns them all, his parentage just a few people like Jon himself, Dany and Starks. Apparently one of the lyrics from Jenny's Song, were actually spoken by Pyat Pree to Dany in the House of the Undying. Which one? I also loved that Jon didn't shy away from his name and even more than that I loved that he got to say that his mother was loved. Something else I noticed was that Daenerys seems to feel lonely and out of place through out the episode, she's confused when even Jon is avoiding her. It's clear she doesn't belong in the north. And while Dany's loneliness is only implied, Missandei's feelings of not belonging and I would even say regrets of ever coming to Westeros are made quite clear. It's kinda weird that we didn't get a scene with those two, Missandei is someone Dany could've turned to for consult and support. I found the lack of Dany/Missandei scenes disturbing. Makes me think they'll survive and talk later, Nathalie said that Missandei is with Dany until the end. But GW might not be. Their scene felt like a goodbye and filled with sadness. They've repeated two times lyrics Never wanted to leave from that song as the camera focused on them kissing, her looking at him + combine that with their talk before that. Maybe I'm looking too much into that but it's GoT. Hard not to.
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Post by Maesteress on Apr 23, 2019 20:42:42 GMT -5
Does anyone think the NK will speak (subtitled perhaps) at some point? OR perhaps communicate in some other way clearly with Bran?
Although one of the eeriest things about him is that he really doesn't need to.
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Post by katjushka on Apr 24, 2019 0:18:27 GMT -5
I also loved the Jaime-Bran scene. Bran didn't give him the expected "zen" response at all. He flat out told him: "You weren't sorry before" and then proceeded to put the fear of death in him. bran comes off as very passive aggressive. no time for petty grudges but he needed to sit in the cold for a day and a night to freak out jaime on arrival, then makes a point of letting jaime know he remembers now when jaime claims he has nothing to apologize for, then throws jaime's lame sorry in his face and tells him he won't get an afterwards. but no, he's above anger now. You're right but this made me laugh so much
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Post by sercreighton on Apr 24, 2019 1:21:07 GMT -5
This was definitely a tough episode for Daenerys. I interpreted the look on her face when she watched Sansa rush to embrace Theon as some realization of how tight-knit this family is, and how out of place she feels there not just because of the Northerners/Targaryen animosity but because of the Starks being very close and loyal to one another which isn't something she's ever known. Sadly, Daenerys grew up only with her brother who obviously wasn't very warm/loving towards her. To top it all off, Jon was strenuously avoiding her because he wasn't ready to talk about what he had just found out about himself yet and this probably made Dany feel even more lonely and out of her element there. It's unfortunate Jon had to find all of this out (and then tell her) at the very last minute before the great war. There was no time to ease Daenerys into his family and work out the relationship issues. This season hasn't been kind to Dany so far. Not only she witnesses the loyalty and familial bond between the the Northerners which she never get to experience, but she's been questioning her life as Emilia Clarke said Dany is experiencing an existential crisis. How much her life is a lie. What's she missing out on ever since Viserys pester her about Westeros and the Targs. To be told she is the rightful person who will restore the Targ dynasty and that people are waiting for this - only for her hope to crash when she saw people aren't waiting for the Targs, she has to fight some zombies unexpectedly to get IT, she learned that her father and Rhaegar aren't good and honorable, and finally the person she loves is the heir to the IT who has better claim than her. How much she missed out is what so painful for her. From her identity as a Targ to as a person. From this, there's a strong parallel to Jon and Dany's identity crisis. Dany never thought the people of Westeros were waiting for her. She and Mormonrt talked about that in season 1, and her and Varys talked about it in season seven she thought he was an idiot for thinking that. I think the Starks have a family bond, but the northerns as a whole are another matter. Who betrayed the North, a northern house, house Bolton. Who refused the call? Most northern houses. Who are ungrateful that Dany is there fighting for them? The Northerners, are by and large xenophobic. Dany showed up and it was not warm welcome and I think she expected more from Jon's family. But then in episode 2 Jon becomes distant. Then using typical Jon timing he drops a bomb on her right before the battle starts and they don't have any time to really think or discuss it. Thats where her existential crisis starts. He just totally changed her world and her belief, her life didn't become a lie. But it wasn't what she thought it was. As for brining back house Targaryen that is all her, Jon has done nothing for the house. Not his fault he's known for a like a day he was Targ. She may be feeling tricked and betrayed. Which is mostly on Jon and his timing and his family. They have been rude to her, ungrateful which even Sansa basically admitted. Jon's best friend hates her and that's understandable but she tells him that and the next Jon says Sam told me I am the King of Westeros, and that's after he avoided her all day. While the rest of his family has treated her like the enemy. Her hand keeps screwing up and she just got back stabbed by Cersei. It's been a rough 48 hours, ah and the walking apocalypse just arrived. Nobody does well in this situation. Even her belief that she wants to help the small folk is getting stepped on by the small folk of the north who are all like we don't take kindly to outsiders defending us from doom.
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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Apr 24, 2019 8:25:21 GMT -5
I saw this posted at another board--did anyone here notice this? I'll have to do another re-watch! (That'll be #4!) " Both the little girl who Davos speaks with in Ep. 2 and the boy that runs into Winterfell to watch the troops marching at the beginning of Ep. 1 are carrying a leather satchel and wearing a brown cloak. Could they be little sparrows or Faceless men? The leather bag looks like the one that Arya carries. There is some sort of insignia on the bag that can be seen as the little girl walks away, but it's hard to make out." I never caught that but WOW! These are supposed to be poverty-stricken smallfolk. I think there's something to this and believe that the crypts are not safe....why would they say how safe they are so many times? That's a dead (pun intended) giveaway that something awful is going to happen down there. Little Birds?...Faceless Men?...Both?
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