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Post by King Tommen on May 2, 2019 11:21:26 GMT -5
It's interesting that they included that foreshadowing in the first place, though. I mean, at the very least they knew that Mel and Arya were going to meet up again in the final battle. It wasn't just the eyes part, the "we will meet again" always sounded important. I may be oversimplifying, but isn't it possible the "and blue eyes" was included in Mel's speech to Arya back in S3 simply because people, just people in general, have not only brown and green eyes, but blue eyes as well (ref. Tormund). If that were the case, it was something they could go back to and lift out the 'and blue eyes' later on when they realized it was useful. ... Or, of course, they could have planned it all along, but I guess my point is that it doesn't really matter, it could have come about either way. ETA: I definitely agree about the 'we will meet again part' -- that was significant and loaded with portent from the very beginning, I think. Oh yeah, I don't think the original intent was for blue eyes to specifically mean WW's, it just worked out really well and was something that they could have Mel call back to in her pep talk to Arya that made it tie together. In the original reading, it was "brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes" so they didn't have it emphasized as the LAST thing the way Mel said it to Arya in the battle of Winterfell. Nevertheless, serendipity. And I doubt they knew exactly what the "we'll meet again" meeting would be exactly way back in Season 3 but I think they definitely knew they wanted a Mel/Arya connection during the endgame, hence the inclusion.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2019 12:00:15 GMT -5
Wait a minute. I just realized that back in 2015 (?) one of the costume designersfor the show said that "the WW have started wearing armour now because one of them was killed with dragonglass" or something to those lines. Why would they wear armour if it's useless Against both valyrian steel and the dragonglass? I mean, it's likely that they just retconned the WW appearance (and the one with black armour is much better anyway) but the reasoning behind it seems silly when the armour doesn't even protect them. I actually think this was just a nice coincidence and they picked up on it after. If I remember correctly, one of the WW in the s2 finale was wearing armour. If I was a betting man, I'd say the walker Sam killed was the same one we'd seen every other time they were onscreen and just that particular one didn't wear any armour. Until later ofc.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2019 15:50:37 GMT -5
Wait a minute. I just realized that back in 2015 (?) one of the costume designersfor the show said that "the WW have started wearing armour now because one of them was killed with dragonglass" or something to those lines. Why would they wear armour if it's useless Against both valyrian steel and the dragonglass? I mean, it's likely that they just retconned the WW appearance (and the one with black armour is much better anyway) but the reasoning behind it seems silly when the armour doesn't even protect them. I actually think this was just a nice coincidence and they picked up on it after. If I remember correctly, one of the WW in the s2 finale was wearing armour. If I was a betting man, I'd say the walker Sam killed was the same one we'd seen every other time they were onscreen and just that particular one didn't wear any armour. Until later ofc. Just rewatched that and you're right, one WW is even wearing a helmet!
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Envie
Vhagar
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Post by Envie on May 2, 2019 15:50:38 GMT -5
This is a really touching tribute to Beric Dondarrion. His death hit me harder after I realized what his whole purpose had been ... Jon: "So what are you fighting for?" Beric: "Life. Death is the enemy. The first enemy, and the last. And the enemy always wins, but we still need to fight him. That's all I know.""You and I won't find much joy while we're here, but we can keep others alive. We can defend those who can't defend themselves. The shield that guards the realms of men"
Sandor: "We're fighting death. You can't beat death..." Beric: "Tell her that ..."RIP Lightning Lord. Thank you for saving Arya Stark's life so she could defeat the enemy. Death.
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sercreighton
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Post by sercreighton on May 3, 2019 1:43:01 GMT -5
NO what I'm saying is that GrrM fairly gets credit for building upon earlier plot points and passages written years before he knew how to expand on them and where they should go. AS HE SHOULD. But why D and D can't get credit for doing the exact same fucking thing is wildly beyond me. If something fits with your past text and works well and you build on that foundation it really doesn't and shouldn't matter when you came up with it. If something fits it fits. I bring up these past examples from the books because they're the exact same thing. Subject to the exact same process of development. As GrrM, who is much more understanding of the adaptation process and the way tv works, has said many many times. That's not what Martin does. Martin starts a plot or subplot knowing full well where he wants it to end up. The gardening happens in the middle not the end or the begining. Perfect example is Dany's arc in game of thrones, he knew from the begining she was going to hatch dragon eggs by the last chapter. How he had a general idea of how to get there, that Viserys and Drogo would die, that Mormont would be her sworn sword. He lays down foreshadowing for the book and the series and he does it with a purpose as he did with Jon's parental arc. He knew what point a was and what point b was, he knows the end of the series, he knows every major plot beat and ending for every character already. What they did was not plot development, it was subversion. The WW plot had nothing to do with Arya until they changed it last minute for a plot twist after 6 seasons of established plot. Martin develops a plot, they subvert them as the did with Sansa and the Bolton's. He didn't start out in thrones saying Dany would hatch the dragons and then in the last two chapters have Arya hatch the dragons cause he thought a plot twist during her resolution for book one and the resolution for the entire book would be shocking. He never messes with main plot points. He may be Gardner but he knows what plant he is planting and what it will grow into. A character may take a winding road to get there, but that character will have a begining, a middle and end, that are specifically written for that character. They subverted Jon's story for Arya because they wanted it to be a plot twist. That's not just bad writting it's cheap and lazy. They came up with this for season 7-8, but that was not where it was going the first six seasons. Jon had a plot, the plot was developed for that character, 2 decades in the books, first 6 seasons of the show. Then they probably saw Star Wars and thought that's a cool trick let's do that. And poof plot twist. The resolution for the plot was suppose to be Jon's, it was his story arc not Arya's. She shouldn't be hatching dragon eggs, or fighting the mountain in Clegane bowl, or blowing up the sept in KL and nameing herself queen, or become the High Sparrow, or gone to the citadel to find out about Jon's parents, or become the three eyed Raven. Not her story, she had her story and they fucked that up too. Do you think Tyrion should of killed Tywin or Arya. She hates the Lannisters, wouldn't that be a surprise. But what would that have done Tyrions story, it's development, his resolution? It was written for him, it was meant for him, it's his story. She could of stabbed him with needle, hey stick them with the pointy end foreshadowed it right? Obviously not. Credit? Not everything is meant to be a plot twist or surprise. You knew the moment Dany got those Dragons eggs she was going to hatch them. It wasn't a surprise, but it sure as hell was the epic climax to thrones and one of the shows most Iconic moments. Did you ever hear anyone ask hey why didn't Arya hatch those dragons? No because it would make no sense. Just like that ending made no sense and was anti climactic, shallow and a poorly subverted plot based off a trick with a knife they saw done in a movie. There that's the credit I give them.
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Post by moiaf on May 3, 2019 6:52:36 GMT -5
NO what I'm saying is that GrrM fairly gets credit for building upon earlier plot points and passages written years before he knew how to expand on them and where they should go. AS HE SHOULD. But why D and D can't get credit for doing the exact same fucking thing is wildly beyond me. If something fits with your past text and works well and you build on that foundation it really doesn't and shouldn't matter when you came up with it. If something fits it fits. I bring up these past examples from the books because they're the exact same thing. Subject to the exact same process of development. As GrrM, who is much more understanding of the adaptation process and the way tv works, has said many many times. That's not what Martin does. Martin starts a plot or subplot knowing full well where he wants it to end up. The gardening happens in the middle not the end or the begining. Perfect example is Dany's arc in game of thrones, he knew from the begining she was going to hatch dragon eggs by the last chapter. How he had a general idea of how to get there, that Viserys and Drogo would die, that Mormont would be her sworn sword. He lays down foreshadowing for the book and the series and he does it with a purpose as he did with Jon's parental arc. He knew what point a was and what point b was, he knows the end of the series, he knows every major plot beat and ending for every character already. What they did was not plot development, it was subversion. The WW plot had nothing to do with Arya until they changed it last minute for a plot twist after 6 seasons of established plot. Martin develops a plot, they subvert them as the did with Sansa and the Bolton's. He didn't start out in thrones saying Dany would hatch the dragons and then in the last two chapters have Arya hatch the dragons cause he thought a plot twist during her resolution for book one and the resolution for the entire book would be shocking. He never messes with main plot points. He may be Gardner but he knows what plant he is planting and what it will grow into. A character may take a winding road to get there, but that character will have a begining, a middle and end, that are specifically written for that character. They subverted Jon's story for Arya because they wanted it to be a plot twist. That's not just bad writting it's cheap and lazy. They came up with this for season 7-8, but that was not where it was going the first six seasons. Jon had a plot, the plot was developed for that character, 2 decades in the books, first 6 seasons of the show. Then they probably saw Star Wars and thought that's a cool trick let's do that. And poof plot twist. The resolution for the plot was suppose to be Jon's, it was his story arc not Arya's. She shouldn't be hatching dragon eggs, or fighting the mountain in Clegane bowl, or blowing up the sept in KL and nameing herself queen, or become the High Sparrow, or gone to the citadel to find out about Jon's parents, or become the three eyed Raven. Not her story, she had her story and they fucked that up too. Do you think Tyrion should of killed Tywin or Arya. She hates the Lannisters, wouldn't that be a surprise. But what would that have done Tyrions story, it's development, his resolution? It was written for him, it was meant for him, it's his story. She could of stabbed him with needle, hey stick them with the pointy end foreshadowed it right? Obviously not. Credit? Not everything is meant to be a plot twist or surprise. You knew the moment Dany got those Dragons eggs she was going to hatch them. It wasn't a surprise, but it sure as hell was the epic climax to thrones and one of the shows most Iconic moments. Did you ever hear anyone ask hey why didn't Arya hatch those dragons? No because it would make no sense. Just like that ending made no sense and was anti climactic, shallow and a poorly subverted plot based off a trick with a knife they saw done in a movie. There that's the credit I give them. I think it could have worked, having Arya kill the Night King, if they had Jon face the Night King first. If Jon had battle the Night King in a sword fight fallen and Arya stabbed the Night King to save Jon, that would have been satisfying. The problem is that they completely ignore the development of the rivalry between Jon and the Night King, by doing so they made the whole thing anti climactic.
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Post by atargbyanothername on May 3, 2019 8:05:56 GMT -5
I hope the NK paid whoever is babysitting CrasterBaby from season 4 in advance because they’re in for a long shift
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Post by King Tommen on May 3, 2019 11:41:16 GMT -5
That's not what Martin does. Martin starts a plot or subplot knowing full well where he wants it to end up. The gardening happens in the middle not the end or the begining. Perfect example is Dany's arc in game of thrones, he knew from the begining she was going to hatch dragon eggs by the last chapter. How he had a general idea of how to get there, that Viserys and Drogo would die, that Mormont would be her sworn sword. He lays down foreshadowing for the book and the series and he does it with a purpose as he did with Jon's parental arc. He knew what point a was and what point b was, he knows the end of the series, he knows every major plot beat and ending for every character already. What they did was not plot development, it was subversion. The WW plot had nothing to do with Arya until they changed it last minute for a plot twist after 6 seasons of established plot. Martin develops a plot, they subvert them as the did with Sansa and the Bolton's. He didn't start out in thrones saying Dany would hatch the dragons and then in the last two chapters have Arya hatch the dragons cause he thought a plot twist during her resolution for book one and the resolution for the entire book would be shocking. He never messes with main plot points. He may be Gardner but he knows what plant he is planting and what it will grow into. A character may take a winding road to get there, but that character will have a begining, a middle and end, that are specifically written for that character. They subverted Jon's story for Arya because they wanted it to be a plot twist. That's not just bad writting it's cheap and lazy. They came up with this for season 7-8, but that was not where it was going the first six seasons. Jon had a plot, the plot was developed for that character, 2 decades in the books, first 6 seasons of the show. Then they probably saw Star Wars and thought that's a cool trick let's do that. And poof plot twist. The resolution for the plot was suppose to be Jon's, it was his story arc not Arya's. She shouldn't be hatching dragon eggs, or fighting the mountain in Clegane bowl, or blowing up the sept in KL and nameing herself queen, or become the High Sparrow, or gone to the citadel to find out about Jon's parents, or become the three eyed Raven. Not her story, she had her story and they fucked that up too. Do you think Tyrion should of killed Tywin or Arya. She hates the Lannisters, wouldn't that be a surprise. But what would that have done Tyrions story, it's development, his resolution? It was written for him, it was meant for him, it's his story. She could of stabbed him with needle, hey stick them with the pointy end foreshadowed it right? Obviously not. Credit? Not everything is meant to be a plot twist or surprise. You knew the moment Dany got those Dragons eggs she was going to hatch them. It wasn't a surprise, but it sure as hell was the epic climax to thrones and one of the shows most Iconic moments. Did you ever hear anyone ask hey why didn't Arya hatch those dragons? No because it would make no sense. Just like that ending made no sense and was anti climactic, shallow and a poorly subverted plot based off a trick with a knife they saw done in a movie. There that's the credit I give them. I think it could have worked, having Arya kill the Night King, if they had Jon face the Night King first. If Jon had battle the Night King in a sword fight fallen and Arya stabbed the Night King to save Jon, that would have been satisfying. The problem is that they completely ignore the development of the rivalry between Jon and the Night King, by doing so they made the whole thing anti climactic. I mean, they did have a full on face off between Jon and the NK during the battle and the NK raised the dead so that Jon couldn't reach him for the one on one combat. The NK never actually fights anyone, he sits back and lets everyone else do the fighting for him and then steps in at the end when there's no threat to him anymore, that's always been his MO. I'm not sure we needed a full on sword fight between Jon and the NK because the NK probably knows Jon wins that fight, he watched one of his lieutenants go down pretty easily at Hardhome. The whole point of the battle was to try and lure him in the open when someone could actually attack him but the NK wasn't going to cooperate, which is why he continually put road blocks in front of Jon. He had accounted for Jon to try and get at him and put Viserion in his path. Him not considering Arya as a threat because of his hubris was his downfall.
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laurya
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Post by laurya on May 3, 2019 16:43:30 GMT -5
Beautiful Death for 803
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 16:47:11 GMT -5
Dany holding Heartsbane in tears...
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Post by TheMadQueen on May 3, 2019 16:53:40 GMT -5
What’s the green and gold symbols up top?
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 16:55:12 GMT -5
What’s the green and gold symbols up top? Jewels on the dagger handle.
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Envie
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Post by Envie on May 3, 2019 17:51:38 GMT -5
Dany holding Heartsbane in tears... I love this so much. I also love Theon with the wolf over half his face. He was a redeemed Stark brother at the end.
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Post by laurya on May 3, 2019 17:53:47 GMT -5
I just realised there's Stannis' fiery heart sigil above Mel's hand.
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ladystoneboobs
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Post by ladystoneboobs on May 4, 2019 0:43:46 GMT -5
I think it could have worked, having Arya kill the Night King, if they had Jon face the Night King first. If Jon had battle the Night King in a sword fight fallen and Arya stabbed the Night King to save Jon, that would have been satisfying. The problem is that they completely ignore the development of the rivalry between Jon and the Night King, by doing so they made the whole thing anti climactic. I mean, they did have a full on face off between Jon and the NK during the battle and the NK raised the dead so that Jon couldn't reach him for the one on one combat. The NK never actually fights anyone, he sits back and lets everyone else do the fighting for him and then steps in at the end when there's no threat to him anymore, that's always been his MO. I'm not sure we needed a full on sword fight between Jon and the NK because the NK probably knows Jon wins that fight, he watched one of his lieutenants go down pretty easily at Hardhome. The whole point of the battle was to try and lure him in the open when someone could actually attack him but the NK wasn't going to cooperate, which is why he continually put road blocks in front of Jon. He had accounted for Jon to try and get at him and put Viserion in his path. Him not considering Arya as a threat because of his hubris was his downfall. idek how jon could have lost to him in a fight and not been killed himself. jon/dany already faced and fought the nk on dragonback and that is a big deal. even ninja arya couldn't jump up and stab him if he was sitting pretty high up on viserion.
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