8x05 General Discussion: Post-Show

BTW - where is Gendry? I can't think of a reason he would've stayed behind at WF?

He also mispronounces Cersei's name a lot, though not in this video ... He often says "CerSAY", with emphasis on the "Say"

The worst was when Loras himself said "TEE-rull" back in season 1.

it's kinda disturbing to me that murdering his pregnant partner would be seen as less villainous than providing comfort to her in their final moments, even if she didn't deserve it. even if she weren't pregnant, the possibility of jaime killing her was never going to be heroic any more than (book)tyrion murdering shae was. i can certainly understand why brienne fans and esp jb shippers would be upset by this but it's not a heel-turn(back), just an ending. while i think cersei would never be satisfied with permanent exile and would want their family to reclaim westeros someday, that was not a goal for tyrion and jaime, just saving her innocent child and hopefully the rest of the city too. that's not comparable to jaime's earlier cersei-related crimes where he was either trying or threatening to murder innocents in the name of his family.

and i don't get how this is seen as jaime still thinking cersei is better than bri when his last words to brienne were not about either woman but just about him not being a good guy. i can respect shippers thinking jaime's past and whether he truly deserves the morally pure brienne does not matter bc she loves him and you just want goopy happiness, but isn't it understandable that said matters are important to jaime? we can't even say definitely what would have happened if cersei weren't pregnant or if there was some other possibility of her surviving without him, but maybe just consider how hard it would be for him to leave his pregnant twin/wife to die alone hundreds of miles away while he started a new life/family with brienne, a woman he knew he didn't deserve, trying to forget all about his past. abandoning brienne was dickish and somewhat cowardly but not the least bit villainous. nor does it invalidate anything that he did before or mean brienne never meant anything to him.

funny how fucking cersei by their son's corpse didn't ruin the bearpit jump and threatening to catapult a baby didn't ruin giving brienne oathkeeper but one final contradiction is just too much and renders everything that came before meaningless.

Since Monday I've been thinking about what happened with Daenerys and whether it made any sense or not. I think I came to the conclusion that for me there was enough foreshadowing AND character development, but apparently they didn't communicate that well enough, because a lot of people disagree with the decision of the writers and call it OOC. I personally don't think it's OOC and I'll explain why. But first I want to say that I completely respect your opinion and I have zero interest in trying to convince you of mine. However, this episode felt like a punch in the gut and I think I need to write down my thoughts in order to move on from it.

The main reason why I don't perceive Dany's behaviour in 805 as OOC is because I never believed she was on a hero's journey. Her rise to power was not that of a hero, but that of a ruler whose superiority complex grew stronger and stronger with each season. She went from the timid girl who was used and manipulated by her brother to the most powerful person in the world. She perceived herself as the chosen one. According to her, the Iron Throne was her destiny. She literally brought dragons back to life. She burnt her enemies, walked into the fire and came out of it unscathed. She let Missandei recite her long list of titles every time someone entered her throne room. All of this pointed towards her hubris and the show made it very obvious, often in an ironic way (remember when Jon and Dany met for the first time?). In Dany's mind, there was no doubt that she is the greatest ruler the world has ever seen. People had to bend the knee or die (e.g. the Tarlys or before that "they can live in my new world or die in their old one). Yes, she ended slavery in Meereen, but how did she do it? The end justified the means. I used to call her a benevolent dictator and I still think that term is very fitting. In any case, there was a lot of character development during the early seasons. It was all about how her pride and self-confidence became astronomically big. It showed what too much power can do to a person. Tyrion commented on it in the previous episode.

But I don't think the character development stopped there. When she arrived in Westeros, she had to come to the harsh realisation that no one was waiting for her. In season 7 she says "I thought this was supposed to be home. It doesn't feel like home." No one was there to welcome her. Westeros was busy with itself and nobody cared. To a woman who literally perceived herself to be the centre of the world (and imo there is no denying that that's how Dany sees herself) that was a very big offence. Again, the very first scene between Jon and Dany showcases this beautifully. But Dany still had advisers who were able to control her worst impulses. This is an element of the show that has been part of it since S1. Several times Dany needed to be persuaded to act out mercy over fury. Sometimes she listened, sometimes she didn't. But she always enjoyed killing her enemies (another thing that is very obvious if you rewatch the respective scenes and pay attention to Emilia's acting). But of course she used to kill people that deserved it (does anyone deserve to be burned alive, though?) and we cheered. Badass Dany. But then in S7 she killed the Tarlys and I remember that a lot of fans tried to justify that too, but I think the intention of the scene was a different one. Dany had options. She could have imprisoned the Tarlys, but no, she decided to burn them alive in front of the other soldiers in order to make perfectly clear what happens to people who don't bend the knee. If Cersei did the same, we would call this an act of cruelty. And you know why? Because it is. But Dany was sure that this was what needed to be done in order to conquer Westeros. She said it herself in S2. She would take what is hers (by what right?) with fire and blood. She didn't arrive at this point over night, though. All of that was character development written over several seasons.

In S8, it became clear that Dany expected some gratitude for how she handled the White Walker threat. Similarly to how she ended slavery in Meereen, she wanted the gratitude of the people and the Lords and Ladies of Westeros. But people saw it as a universal threat that pertained to everybody, including Dany herself. It was not Jon's war that she was fighting but also her own. So why did she deserve gratitude? However, she never admitted to this.

From her perspective, it was an absolute given that Westeros was hers. Her property so to speak. That was the culmination of 7 seasons of character development for Dany. Her hubris reached its peak. And yet, Westeros had other plans. Some people clearly preferred Jon (Sansa, Varys, the Northerners), others were still bending the knee to Cersei. And Dany felt more and more alone and isolated. Westeros was not waiting for her and no one was thanking her. So it was very clear to her that she had to do something about it and that's why she decided to move forward against Cersei. She didn't want to wait for more people to know about Jon. The Iron Throne needed to be hers before that. But Dany acted precipitately and Missandei had to pay with her life. On top of that, Varys betrayed her and Jon, the one person that could threaten her claim, was distancing himself from her. Now the great Daenerys Targaryen was suddenly very alone in the world. I think people are vastly underestimating the effects of grief and loneliness. Dany felt as if her identity, that had been built up over 7 seasons, was being stripped away. Taking out Cersei was not enough. Just like how she burnt the Tarlys alive in order to set an example, she burnt the people of KL. They can live in her new world or die in their old one. From her perspective, they made their decision when they hid behind Cersei.