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Post by nikma on May 15, 2019 13:03:41 GMT -5
I agree with this video so much. Interesting video, but the point of snap is that it's a snap. lol I think when it comes to this you either buy it or not. People in real life killl their relatives "out of nowhere". Breaking point is different for everybody. I think it was established already that Dany can be really cruel, that she has very black and white perspective and that she has messianic complex. And it was established that she never hurt someone innocent intentionally. But I think it was also established that she never hurt someone innocent intentionally because people alround her had to stop her. So, as I said you either buy this or not. What it takes for her to decide to burn everything after all? And I think it was also important not to make this horrible crime justified. |
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Post by nikma on May 15, 2019 13:07:23 GMT -5
I agree with this post:
"I think they didn’t make this a slower build up for 2 reasons. One, it’s far more dramatic this way and frankly, the writing has been on the wall for some time. Secondly, mental breakdowns work the way they showed. We got 10 years of her straddling right vs wrong and then in a few episodes things crashed down on her. Her life was the setup. Mental crises happen in a snap when someone without a strong structural support system who has so much instability mentally from life experience a traumatic turn in their lives. Daenerys has several back to back to back. Jon is the true heir. Jorah dies protecting her. Dragon/child/weapon/status symbol shot down. Messandei gets beheaded. Jon rejects her advances. Westeros/the north react to her as a conqueror vs savior. Varys plots against her.
Frankly, it’s less realistic that she held it together this long. But without inner dialogue the show had to make it totally clear to the viewer what was happening to her."
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Post by iheartseverus on May 15, 2019 13:31:46 GMT -5
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Post by nikma on May 15, 2019 13:40:34 GMT -5
The Last Jedi all over again lol
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laurya
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Post by laurya on May 15, 2019 13:53:34 GMT -5
AngryGOTfan aka Jack Posobiec aka “Dylan D.“ |
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Post by konradsmith on May 15, 2019 14:00:10 GMT -5
I think when it comes to this you either buy it or not. . That's the crux of it. For me, as someone who resisted believing this when I saw the widespread theory years ago, what really made it work was rewatching the show in the past few weeks with this leak in mind. It's not a matter of just foreshadowing, this is something she's said she'd do multiple times and she wasn't bluffing then either. Plus the whole purpose of setting up Targaryen madness was to depict it eventually. It's not just background; it's a tension that was setup to be paid off. In the same, the Sack of King's Landing wasn't just a historical event, it was set up to lead to this; a reverse of history, this time its a Targaryen atrocity against a Lannister-held KL. Though in the books it'll probably be fAegon holding KL when she does it, so it won't be as clean a reversal. Now I imagine some people won't rewatch at all and that's perfectly fine but for those willing to, I think things will gel quite a bit better. |
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Post by TheArchmaester on May 15, 2019 14:00:58 GMT -5
I read somewhere GRRM was quoted saying something about how he didn't like full redemption story arcs for characters and wondered if people are truly able to change fully and be redeemed of past wrongs. I'm probably butchering the hell out of that in my interpretation of it, but it's disheartening because I thought that was sort of the point for many of the characters... to be various stages of morally gray and yet still able to go on and have a meaningful life after making bad choices. If you think about it, Jaime's failure to become a redeemed character is as disheartening as Dany's failure to prove the naysayers wrong about her being a mad Targaryen. They spent years traveling hard roads to learn hard lessons ... and for what? Jaime ran back to Cersei like a crack addict and didn't really change at all? Dany spent years making mistakes and also having victories in Essos so she would be a better ruler ... for what? To come to Westeros and burn down King's Landing? Is that really the point of saying people don't have redemption arcs? I remember that interview. GrrM brought up Michael Vick as an example of someone seeking forgiveness who he wasn't sure he ever really could forgive. No matter the good deeds they attempted to expiate what they'd done. But his main point was that people aren't a one way street. Real people don't have a fixed character trajectory really. At least not usually. We seek betterment but we backslide as easily. So to see things as smoothly or as cleanly as "so-and-so's been redeemed now, he'll never do anything bad ever again!" is not how humans operate. So while Jaime left to fight for the living and then spent some good time with Brienne (is he a father yet again, we'll find out, I guess?), his self-loathing still remains. And his Cersei-addiction. Which both fuel each other and are enough to send him south again. Which in his view is probably best for Brienne. Really Jaime's such a complex mess, mere redemption would be too simple for him. And though, while I do think he actually will kill her in the books, again as Laurya says above; that's not really redemption. Particularly if they're both about to die anyways, which I suspect will echo this episode, even if its in Casterly Rock instead of KL. Well said. It's no wonder Nikolaj loved this season so much. Jaime deserved better than a "redemption arc". This really doesn't seem to be a story about people becoming "better" humans or improving with time. At least, this doesn't seem to be GrrM or D&D's intention at all. I think GrrM's view of human nature is pretty sane without being pessimistic. His characters don't really change - they expand. That what was so great about Jaime in s8, all those scenes with Brienne, the knighting in particular. That is the real Jaime, as real as the Jaime who's addicted to Cersei and can't let go. He's a walking contradiction until he dies. And his final scene with Cersei is different to any of his previous scenes with her. There is no regression, just different facets playing out. |
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nikma
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Post by nikma on May 15, 2019 14:12:26 GMT -5
I also want to say that I have no intention to "prove" that someones opinion is wrong.
Dany never intentionally killed so many innocent people, but she did kill inocent people in Meereen in a very cruel way. Yes they were slavers but not all slavers were evil. The show made a point at the end of S4 that some slaves worked as teachers and servents so there were some good masters that did't treat them like property.
And I'm sure that after WW2 not everyone who was part of Nazi regime was killed. It's an evil system, but you can't be killed just because you were part of that system.
And again the reason why she didn't kill even more innocent people is that often people around her had to stop her. She wanted to burn Yunkai and Astapor.
So now, there was no one to stop her. She is extremely powerful person, but she feels isolated and even humiliated. That's very dangerous. She lost half of her army, two of her dragons, her closest friends, her advisers are betraying her, Jon is rejecting her, Westeros doesn't want her.
D&D thought this is enough for her to cross that line. Some will agree, some won't. As I say, you either buy this or not.
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Post by nikma on May 15, 2019 14:25:24 GMT -5
Dany reminded me last episode of obscurus from fantastic beasts tbh.
It's like she became this force of pain and destruction and revenge. Lannisters surrendering was not enough, they all need to pay, it felt like revange against everyone, against this whole world that betrayed her so many times. Jon, Varys, Tyrion, Cersei, the North, people of KL that didn't want to be saved, whole Westeros, she lost so much for nothing, they will never love her or support her.
It felt like that scream from Cat at RW. She couldn't take it any more.
She won, but it wasn't enough to heal all her wounds.
This is good post that explains what I feel:
"Goddamn. That long ass pause, with Dany sitting on Drogon, looking at the Red Keep.
Her rightful home, one she's never lived in. The one built by her family, her ancestors. The life she wanted and never had, the life she dreamed about when she was being raped, starved, ridiculed, betrayed. The life she was fighting for when she was confused, tired, hopeless.
The home that was finally in her grasp. Held by Cersei fucking Lanister, who (after everything else) was trying to angle for an honorable surrender. A surrender that Dany was expected to honor, respect, and comply with. To stay her hand again, after a lifetime of staying her hand.
There, sitting on the back of death incarnate, what was she thinking about during that long pause? Old dreams?
Did she ever dream of walking through the Red Keep with Missandei? Keeping all three of her dragons in the Dragonpit? Making love to Jon in Maegor's Holdfast?
How deep was the battlelust inside of her, after murdering the Iron Fleet that killed her dragon? After destroying the gate where Missandei was slaughtered in chains?"
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Post by alcasinoroyale on May 15, 2019 14:30:23 GMT -5
Remaking S8 doesn't makes sense, but maybe they include all of the cut scenes and/or have an extended edition on the boxset like LotR did as a bonus. |
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Post by belle on May 15, 2019 14:42:40 GMT -5
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Post by TheArchmaester on May 15, 2019 14:45:06 GMT -5
The home that was finally in her grasp. Held by Cersei fucking Lanister, who (after everything else) was trying to angle for an honorable surrender. A surrender that Dany was expected to honor, respect, and comply with. To stay her hand again, after a lifetime of staying her hand.This was hard to convey but they pulled it off somehow. Peace never sounded so hollow. This is not how a Targaryen conquest is supposed to end. As a viewer, they put you right in that spot where you're both hoping for peace like Tyrion and Jon, and at the same time wanting Dany to just give in to her impulses completely. We've been wanting to see a Targaryen conquest for 8 years now. This is how it looks like. |
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Post by belle on May 15, 2019 14:46:46 GMT -5
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Post by TheMadQueen on May 15, 2019 15:03:29 GMT -5
Reminds me of how Lena has always said Cersei is just an overgrown spoiled brat kid.
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Post by wolf on May 15, 2019 15:47:27 GMT -5
There is that type of people/viewers who will accept blindly everything that show will present them, they will eat every crap that will be served for them, no matter the size of it. They will defend it no matter how absurd it is.
"It must make sense! I will try connect dots!" and retrospectivly they will bend and twist events from previous seasons to be in line with wathever writers come up with to explain and justify it.
Good example from different forum:
"" The storytelling equivalent would be if at the beginning of this season the characters all started worrying whether Tyrion would molest children once he was back in King’s Landing. Scene after scene of side conversations implying it’s going to happen. Then in S8E5 he sneaks off during the battle and does it and afterwards people say “Why does this surprise you? It was foreshadowed. We’ve always known he was obsessed with sex and enjoyed having power over others. Remember back in S1 with Bran? I bet he was trying to groom him.”
No, zero work would’ve been done to connect the two just like zero work was done connecting “Dany is capable of burning slavers, traitors and people who threaten her alive” to “Dany is willing to burn streets full of innocent people alive.” That’s not going from A to B. It’s jumping from A to Z with no letters added in between. Could the character have gone there? Possibly (and presumably she will in the books) but if you want to do that it’s a multi-season arc. Which they didn’t even attempt. No one is “shocked” by the twist having ignored all the signs. They’re annoyed that the show runners thought it made sense in any way given what we know about the character and what we’ve seen from her so far. It was hack work. That’s what’s unsatisfying, not the plot point itself."
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