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Post by moiaf on Jul 26, 2017 17:38:03 GMT -5
There was talk of Carice breaking down in tears during the filming of this season, saying she just wanted to go home to her baby etc (her baby was only a couple of months old then), so it could be that her performance was a little flat because of what was going on with Carice personally. I believe she said in an interview something along the lines of that she thought that what she was doing just wasn't important. That being home with her baby was. Very understandable mindset given she was a new mother. It could be this but I also felt that Mel seemed more disillusioned than anything. So maybe it's a combination of personal and the way she wanted to portray Mel.
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Post by Lovely Lyanna on Jul 26, 2017 19:26:29 GMT -5
Well, that is pretty much what I said before the season began and I was pretty much howled down. The problem for Mel, is how to come back after the Shireen fiasco. There was simply not enough time for a full on redemption. Sure, she brings back Jon, but she was simply transferring her vision of Stannis onto someone else and more importantly, she did not have to suffer in order to do that. Both Jaime Sandor and Theon were redeemed and they both suffered greatly as part of their redemption. Mel certainly smoothed the path for Jon, but she did not suffer while doing so. She may have been humbled somewhat, but she was simply not redeemed. Ftfy, and Idt GRRM is making the point that punishment = redemption or that suffering determines the worth of a character. Theon's torture was pretty much pointless and actually kept him from making better choices until he took the leap with Sansa. Tormund made the jump from villain (I remember the GA hating the wildlings in s4) to fan fave hero by the time of Hardhome, only 1 season later, and he wasn't even seriously injured in the Battle of Castle Black. Sorry, but you completely missed my point. I was not speaking about turning a villain into a good guy plus I never saw Tormund as a villain. Just because someone is not on the side of a character you like does not mean he is necessarily a villain. Also as I remember "Watchers on the Wall" Tormund had a bunch of arrows in him. I say he was pretty injured with that many arrows. Nevertheless he wasn't redeemed, because he had no need to be. He did not do anything wrong. He did not push anyone out of a tower, he never slit a throat at a wedding, and he did not betray his best friend. He simply was fighting on the opposite side. Generally most people are redeemed or at least attempt to redeem themselves when they suffer. Yes Jaime, Theon, and Sandor were redeemed, but part of their redemption came from their suffering which changes their viewpoint, which then causes them to feel things differently and eventually do things differently. While I could have done without seeing the torture of Theon week after week, it is what starts him down the road to redemption. As a viewer you feel Theon has paid for his crimes. You do not feel Mel has paid for hers. At least I don't. Does she have anything to offer to either side. I doubt it other than any knowledge she might have since she is so old, but since she has never revealed any such knowledge she appears to be useless. I guess the best you could say is that she was definitely humbled, but even that was limited. She had already started that same religious crap she did with Stannis with Jon when Davos showed up in a rage over Shireen. Hell she probably would have wanted to burn Sansa in a week or two if she had stayed around. One of the hardest things about ASOIAF is having to say goodbye to great characters, but in all honesty after seeing Jaqen comeback wearing an acid washed tie dyed bathrobe, I would just as soon have goodbye mean goodbye even though I am totally on board if they bring back Syrio.
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Post by ladystoneboobs on Jul 26, 2017 19:48:44 GMT -5
Ftfy, and Idt GRRM is making the point that punishment = redemption or that suffering determines the worth of a character. Theon's torture was pretty much pointless and actually kept him from making better choices until he took the leap with Sansa. Tormund made the jump from villain (I remember the GA hating the wildlings in s4) to fan fave hero by the time of Hardhome, only 1 season later, and he wasn't even seriously injured in the Battle of Castle Black. Sorry, but you completely missed my point. I was not speaking about turning a villain into a good guy plus I never saw Tormund as a villain. Just because someone is not on the side of a character you like does not mean he is necessarily a villain. Also as I remember "Watchers on the Wall" Tormund had a bunch of arrows in him. I say he was pretty injured with that many arrows. Nevertheless he wasn't redeemed, because he had no need to be. He did not do anything wrong. He did not push anyone out of a tower, he never slit a throat at a wedding, and he did not betray his best friend. He simply was fighting on the opposite side. Generally most people are redeemed or at least attempt to redeem themselves when they suffer. Yes Jaime, Theon, and Sandor were redeemed, but part of their redemption came from their suffering which changes their viewpoint, which then causes them to feel things differently and eventually do things differently. While I could have done without seeing the torture of Theon week after week, it is what starts him down the road to redemption. 1. no, they don't. trauma is not always character building. most of the time it just fucks people up. see TheArchmaester 's post. 2. lol show jaime is not redeemed and plenty would say he hasn't been in the books either. 3. theon needed to be brought down a peg for the audience to warm up to him but 3 seasons as a prisoner went way beyond that. nothing ramsay did was about punishment and the whole fucking point was that it was too much. his redemption could only start with the escape from ramsay, which happened despite the reekification, not because of it. 4. if a person can turn their life around and change their viewpoint without being fucking mutilated and/or tortured and/or otherwise almost killed, then that should generally be a good thing. 5. syrio is dead as a doornail.
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Post by Lovely Lyanna on Jul 26, 2017 19:53:34 GMT -5
I guess we have to agree to disagree then. Thanks for playing.
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Post by ladystoneboobs on Jul 26, 2017 20:14:04 GMT -5
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Post by TheArchmaester on Jul 26, 2017 20:53:39 GMT -5
Some interesting thoughts on how Olenna is playing Dany and the consequences it could have (stolen from someone's WOTW comment):
I think the writers show us that, while Olenna still has her no-nonsense and biting manner of speech, she is now solely focused on revenge. She does not care about what is happening in her region, does not care whether what she advises Daenerys to do is sound or not, does not care whether it could hurt the Mother of Dragons in the long run. All she cares about is that Cersei die and she uses Daenerys as her weapon of choice.
She is exactly like Ellaria but has the intelligence to be subtle about it. She played the older lady card expertly, betting the young Targaryen had grown up without a mother figure or female role model of any sort, and would be sensitive to a woman patting her on the knee and giving her grandmotherly advice.
If someone leads Daenerys down a very destructive path, it will be Olenna. She is telling her to put the pedal to the metal, thereby possibly turning her into the queen of the ashes, and to ignore the interventions of smart men, potentially sabotaging her relationship not only with Tyrion but also with Jon when he shows up.
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Post by atimeforwolves on Jul 27, 2017 5:33:39 GMT -5
Some interesting thoughts on how Olenna is playing Dany and the consequences it could have (stolen from someone's WOTW comment): I think the writers show us that, while Olenna still has her no-nonsense and biting manner of speech, she is now solely focused on revenge. She does not care about what is happening in her region, does not care whether what she advises Daenerys to do is sound or not, does not care whether it could hurt the Mother of Dragons in the long run. All she cares about is that Cersei die and she uses Daenerys as her weapon of choice.
She is exactly like Ellaria but has the intelligence to be subtle about it. She played the older lady card expertly, betting the young Targaryen had grown up without a mother figure or female role model of any sort, and would be sensitive to a woman patting her on the knee and giving her grandmotherly advice.
If someone leads Daenerys down a very destructive path, it will be Olenna. She is telling her to put the pedal to the metal, thereby possibly turning her into the queen of the ashes, and to ignore the interventions of smart men, potentially sabotaging her relationship not only with Tyrion but also with Jon when he shows up.Ha! My thoughts exactly. Like a Green Grace she's using Dany's lacking of mother-figure to increase her influence on Queen. And all Olenna wants at this point is to make Cersei suffer and die, even if in process Westeros would turn in wasteland, a feast for crows. Cersei made a good point to Tyrell's bannermen about that- Olenna even helped to bring Dothraki, she doesn't care about possible damages of war, even for her own people. She only wants her revenge, but even this would not soothe her pain, as she said her future was stolen from her, so why would she care for future at all? Daenerys has to be careful here, being a dragon could has bad consequences for her, as Westeros got also a vital bad history from Targs dynasty. I'm positive that Dany's show and books story would be really similar here- only actors of this conflict would change. Even if she's a good person, more than decent choice for a ruler, her actions may be interpret as a aggression, and her enemies as having higher moral ground, even if they don't (Cersei and fAegon). And that should change Dany's mind about her conquest and make her going North. Visions from HotU confirm this destination is really likely, also structure of story points to this strongly.
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Post by Envie on Jul 27, 2017 6:02:08 GMT -5
Some interesting thoughts on how Olenna is playing Dany and the consequences it could have (stolen from someone's WOTW comment): I think the writers show us that, while Olenna still has her no-nonsense and biting manner of speech, she is now solely focused on revenge. She does not care about what is happening in her region, does not care whether what she advises Daenerys to do is sound or not, does not care whether it could hurt the Mother of Dragons in the long run. All she cares about is that Cersei die and she uses Daenerys as her weapon of choice.
She is exactly like Ellaria but has the intelligence to be subtle about it. She played the older lady card expertly, betting the young Targaryen had grown up without a mother figure or female role model of any sort, and would be sensitive to a woman patting her on the knee and giving her grandmotherly advice.
If someone leads Daenerys down a very destructive path, it will be Olenna. She is telling her to put the pedal to the metal, thereby possibly turning her into the queen of the ashes, and to ignore the interventions of smart men, potentially sabotaging her relationship not only with Tyrion but also with Jon when he shows up.I do agree the "Be a dragon" remarks were meant to stir up a sense of vengeance in Daenerys to Olenna's benefit. This is the woman who conspired to kill Joffrey after all, she's definitely not above murdering kings and queens and the one thing that pulled her into alliance with Ellaria was when Varys came out of the shadows to proclaim "Fire and Blood" as their motivations. I don't blame Olenna at all for her revenge focused attitude - her entire house was just destroyed and she wants Cersei to pay for that. She does see Dany and her dragons as a weapon and a female one is far more useful to her than another gullible man which is exactly what she pointed out to Dany with the sheep reference. But I have to say, the look Daenerys gives Olenna when she says that isn't exactly agreeing with her. She's listening, she's smiling, but she's not exactly buying it. Dany has learned a LOT about following her own instincts and not the advice of others. She's spent years in Essos listening to everyone else give her advice. Like Jon, she's now making her own decisions even at the risk of angering her own bannermen the same as he did in deciding to go south to meet her.
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Post by atimeforwolves on Jul 27, 2017 8:22:48 GMT -5
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moiaf
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Post by moiaf on Jul 27, 2017 10:20:47 GMT -5
Some interesting thoughts on how Olenna is playing Dany and the consequences it could have (stolen from someone's WOTW comment): I think the writers show us that, while Olenna still has her no-nonsense and biting manner of speech, she is now solely focused on revenge. She does not care about what is happening in her region, does not care whether what she advises Daenerys to do is sound or not, does not care whether it could hurt the Mother of Dragons in the long run. All she cares about is that Cersei die and she uses Daenerys as her weapon of choice.
She is exactly like Ellaria but has the intelligence to be subtle about it. She played the older lady card expertly, betting the young Targaryen had grown up without a mother figure or female role model of any sort, and would be sensitive to a woman patting her on the knee and giving her grandmotherly advice.
If someone leads Daenerys down a very destructive path, it will be Olenna. She is telling her to put the pedal to the metal, thereby possibly turning her into the queen of the ashes, and to ignore the interventions of smart men, potentially sabotaging her relationship not only with Tyrion but also with Jon when he shows up.I do agree the "Be a dragon" remarks were meant to stir up a sense of vengeance in Daenerys to Olenna's benefit. This is the woman who conspired to kill Joffrey after all, she's definitely not above murdering kings and queens and the one thing that pulled her into alliance with Ellaria was when Varys came out of the shadows to proclaim "Fire and Blood" as their motivations. I don't blame Olenna at all for her revenge focused attitude - her entire house was just destroyed and she wants Cersei to pay for that. She does see Dany and her dragons as a weapon and a female one is far more useful to her than another gullible man which is exactly what she pointed out to Dany with the sheep reference. But I have to say, the look Daenerys gives Olenna when she says that isn't exactly agreeing with her. She's listening, she's smiling, but she's not exactly buying it. Dany has learned a LOT about following her own instincts and not the advice of others. She's spent years in Essos listening to everyone else give her advice. Like Jon, she's now making her own decisions even at the risk of angering her own bannermen the same as he did in deciding to go south to meet her. I think this is very true. But I also have to add that I don't think Oleanna's advice was that bad, there was some merrit to it, especially given Cerse's no-holds-bar attitute which Oleanna knows well.
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Envie
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Post by Envie on Jul 27, 2017 12:33:15 GMT -5
I think this is very true. But I also have to add that I don't think Oleanna's advice was that bad, there was some merrit to it, especially given Cerse's no-holds-bar attitute which Oleanna knows well. I do wonder, however, if Olenna's banking on the form of "Dragon" she knows best from Dany's Father when she's advising Dany to be a dragon. Olenna has just met Daenerys so she doesn't really know that much about her other than the same rumors Cersei is now twisting into propaganda and are based on truth. They know for a fact Dany has actually burnt men alive with her dragons and that she crucified other men as well. They know she has a Dothraki horde who are notorious for raping/pillaging and enslaving others. There's plenty of material there indicating Dany might be as murderous as her Father was. Olenna sees her for a good person, but also with the capability of being a dragon who breathes fire too. We know Olenna wants revenge so I have to think "Be a dragon" means burn them all since she's basically telling Dany to ignore the 'clever man' (her Hand Tyrion) in that same piece of advice.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Jul 27, 2017 13:10:19 GMT -5
I have been meaning to ask another question (relating to one of my favorite topics).
In the letter from Tyrion to Jon -- Tyrion repeats the line about a dwarf being a bastard in his father's eyes -- and the show calls out the line by having Jon and Sansa discuss how that line was something Tyrion said to Jon when they first met.
So here is my question: anyone else see the repeating of that line as foreshadowing by D&D? For those who are wondering what I mean by foreshadowing -- I obviously mean foreshadowing that Tyrion really is a bastard -- a Targaryen bastard and son of the Mad King.
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Post by katjushka on Jul 27, 2017 13:14:32 GMT -5
I have been meaning to ask another question (relating to one of my favorite topics). In the letter from Tyrion to Jon -- Tyrion repeats the line about a dwarf being a bastard in his father's eyes -- and the show calls out the line by having Jon and Sansa discuss how that line was something Tyrion said to Jon when they first met. So here is my question: anyone else see the repeating of that line as foreshadowing by D&D? For those who are wondering what I mean by foreshadowing -- I obviously mean foreshadowing that Tyrion really is a bastard -- a Targaryen bastard and son of the Mad King. I don't see it. I mean, I loved the whole Tyrion is a secret Targ-train like three or four years ago but the truth is, looking at the show and the complete lack of hinting at it.. It's not happening. Just compare it to Jon, to Lyanna and Rhaegar and how they have been kept in the story all the time, mentioned here and there etc. There's nothing like that with Tyrion. Yes, he made a connection with the dragons right away but that's about it.
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Envie
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Post by Envie on Jul 27, 2017 13:15:24 GMT -5
I have been meaning to ask another question (relating to one of my favorite topics). In the letter from Tyrion to Jon -- Tyrion repeats the line about a dwarf being a bastard in his father's eyes -- and the show calls out the line by having Jon and Sansa discuss how that line was something Tyrion said to Jon when they first met. So here is my question: anyone else see the repeating of that line as foreshadowing by D&D? For those who are wondering what I mean by foreshadowing -- I obviously mean foreshadowing that Tyrion really is a bastard -- a Targaryen bastard and son of the Mad King. I've been seeing a lot more Tyrion theories cropping up since Season 7 started and it always makes me smile when the secret Targaryen theories come back. It's a rather contentious theory clearly divided on both sides and clearly with merits both ways. I even made a whole thread about it which I think you did participate in the discussion previously housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/thread/350/spoilers-season-7-heads-dragonI'm still not sure how I feel about it to be honest. A part of me wants Tyrion to be full blood Lannister and the one to survive the whole thing and continue the Lannister line in spite of his Father as that's far more poetic justice. But there's always a tiny part of me thinks it might be kinda neat if he really is Dany's half-brother and a Lannister bastard too!
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Jul 27, 2017 13:43:15 GMT -5
I have been meaning to ask another question (relating to one of my favorite topics). In the letter from Tyrion to Jon -- Tyrion repeats the line about a dwarf being a bastard in his father's eyes -- and the show calls out the line by having Jon and Sansa discuss how that line was something Tyrion said to Jon when they first met. So here is my question: anyone else see the repeating of that line as foreshadowing by D&D? For those who are wondering what I mean by foreshadowing -- I obviously mean foreshadowing that Tyrion really is a bastard -- a Targaryen bastard and son of the Mad King. I've been seeing a lot more Tyrion theories cropping up since Season 7 started and it always makes me smile when the secret Targaryen theories come back. It's a rather contentious theory clearly divided on both sides and clearly with merits both ways. I even made a whole thread about it which I think you did participate in the discussion previously housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/thread/350/spoilers-season-7-heads-dragonI'm still not sure how I feel about it to be honest. A part of me wants Tyrion to be full blood Lannister and the one to survive the whole thing and continue the Lannister line in spite of his Father as that's far more poetic justice. But there's always a tiny part of me thinks it might be kinda neat if he really is Dany's half-brother and a Lannister bastard too! As I think you know, I try my best not to let my personal preference interfere with my analysis of what I think is going to happen. While I will admit that I am basically fond of the idea of Tyrion being a Targ -- I have tried to keep any such feelings on the matter free from affecting my judgment on the matter. So purely from a literary foreshadowing point of view, I found it odd that the show made a point of repeating that line unless it has some future implication. But maybe they just liked the line.
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