Lils
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Post by Lils on Jul 27, 2017 13:43:37 GMT -5
I have been meaning to ask another question (relating to one of my favorite topics). In the letter from Tyrion to Jon -- Tyrion repeats the line about a dwarf being a bastard in his father's eyes -- and the show calls out the line by having Jon and Sansa discuss how that line was something Tyrion said to Jon when they first met. So here is my question: anyone else see the repeating of that line as foreshadowing by D&D? For those who are wondering what I mean by foreshadowing -- I obviously mean foreshadowing that Tyrion really is a bastard -- a Targaryen bastard and son of the Mad King. I've been seeing a lot more Tyrion theories cropping up since Season 7 started and it always makes me smile when the secret Targaryen theories come back. It's a rather contentious theory clearly divided on both sides and clearly with merits both ways. I even made a whole thread about it which I think you did participate in the discussion previously housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/thread/350/spoilers-season-7-heads-dragonI'm still not sure how I feel about it to be honest. A part of me wants Tyrion to be full blood Lannister and the one to survive the whole thing and continue the Lannister line in spite of his Father as that's far more poetic justice. But there's always a tiny part of me thinks it might be kinda neat if he really is Dany's half-brother and a Lannister bastard too! I can see why the theory is appealing, but it lessens the impact of Jon's secret identity if it is done twice. There is so much made about Tyrion's bastard comment, but I think the hatred Tywin feels is more because there is something with his name that is less than perfect. He's all about reputation and legacy and Tyrion is a blight on that, in his eyes. He doesn't need to be a Targaryen for Tywin to hate him.
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Lils
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Post by Lils on Jul 27, 2017 13:45:05 GMT -5
I've been seeing a lot more Tyrion theories cropping up since Season 7 started and it always makes me smile when the secret Targaryen theories come back. It's a rather contentious theory clearly divided on both sides and clearly with merits both ways. I even made a whole thread about it which I think you did participate in the discussion previously housewiththereddoor.freeforums.net/thread/350/spoilers-season-7-heads-dragonI'm still not sure how I feel about it to be honest. A part of me wants Tyrion to be full blood Lannister and the one to survive the whole thing and continue the Lannister line in spite of his Father as that's far more poetic justice. But there's always a tiny part of me thinks it might be kinda neat if he really is Dany's half-brother and a Lannister bastard too! As I think you know, I try my best not to let my personal preference interfere with my analysis of what I think is going to happen. While I will admit that I am basically fond of the idea of Tyrion being a Targ -- I have tried to keep any such feelings on the matter free from affecting my judgment on the matter. So purely from a literary foreshadowing point of view, I found it odd that the show made a point of repeating that line unless it has some future implication. But maybe they just liked the line. I think they just liked the line. They've been having lines crop up that were in Season 1. "That's not you" for instance. It makes sense that the line would be used as a means of Tyrion just telling Jon it's him. Not every callback has foreshadowing implications, it's more just a "Hey look how far we've come."
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Post by Lovely Lyanna on Jul 27, 2017 13:49:00 GMT -5
Wow really? Not too bright was she.
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Post by Lovely Lyanna on Jul 27, 2017 13:56:31 GMT -5
I do agree the "Be a dragon" remarks were meant to stir up a sense of vengeance in Daenerys to Olenna's benefit. This is the woman who conspired to kill Joffrey after all, she's definitely not above murdering kings and queens and the one thing that pulled her into alliance with Ellaria was when Varys came out of the shadows to proclaim "Fire and Blood" as their motivations. I don't blame Olenna at all for her revenge focused attitude - her entire house was just destroyed and she wants Cersei to pay for that. She does see Dany and her dragons as a weapon and a female one is far more useful to her than another gullible man which is exactly what she pointed out to Dany with the sheep reference. But I have to say, the look Daenerys gives Olenna when she says that isn't exactly agreeing with her. She's listening, she's smiling, but she's not exactly buying it. Dany has learned a LOT about following her own instincts and not the advice of others. She's spent years in Essos listening to everyone else give her advice. Like Jon, she's now making her own decisions even at the risk of angering her own bannermen the same as he did in deciding to go south to meet her. I think this is very true. But I also have to add that I don't think Oleanna's advice was that bad, there was some merrit to it, especially given Cerse's no-holds-bar attitute which Oleanna knows well. I agree in that while Tyrion and Varys have a touch feely politically correct view of the people, that is like fighting with one hand tied behind your back. If you are going to conquer something than get on with it. Then you rebuild it. Basically with their strategy you are saying it is better to save the lives of these people while wasting the lives of other people. People die, it is just different people that die. With this philosophy, Tyrion and Varys are going to throw away the lives of their military in order to save the lives of the people that could not even be bothered to have a reaction to their sept and chosen religion being destroyed.
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Post by breakfest on Jul 27, 2017 16:27:06 GMT -5
So wanting to limit civilian deaths is a 'touchy feely politically correct view'? And not just a basic moral good?
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Lils
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Post by Lils on Jul 27, 2017 16:31:36 GMT -5
So wanting to limit civilian deaths is a 'touchy feely politically correct view'? And not just a basic moral good? It's also bad reputation wise and that's something important with a monarch. Dany is already fighting against the mad Targaryen image. If she doesn't fight against that preconceived notion, she risks having her reign challenged further down the line and few allies. Fear does not always make for a good weapon for ruling.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Jul 27, 2017 16:43:20 GMT -5
Some interesting thoughts on how Olenna is playing Dany and the consequences it could have (stolen from someone's WOTW comment): I think the writers show us that, while Olenna still has her no-nonsense and biting manner of speech, she is now solely focused on revenge. She does not care about what is happening in her region, does not care whether what she advises Daenerys to do is sound or not, does not care whether it could hurt the Mother of Dragons in the long run. All she cares about is that Cersei die and she uses Daenerys as her weapon of choice.
She is exactly like Ellaria but has the intelligence to be subtle about it. She played the older lady card expertly, betting the young Targaryen had grown up without a mother figure or female role model of any sort, and would be sensitive to a woman patting her on the knee and giving her grandmotherly advice.
If someone leads Daenerys down a very destructive path, it will be Olenna. She is telling her to put the pedal to the metal, thereby possibly turning her into the queen of the ashes, and to ignore the interventions of smart men, potentially sabotaging her relationship not only with Tyrion but also with Jon when he shows up.I do agree the "Be a dragon" remarks were meant to stir up a sense of vengeance in Daenerys to Olenna's benefit. This is the woman who conspired to kill Joffrey after all, she's definitely not above murdering kings and queens and the one thing that pulled her into alliance with Ellaria was when Varys came out of the shadows to proclaim "Fire and Blood" as their motivations. I don't blame Olenna at all for her revenge focused attitude - her entire house was just destroyed and she wants Cersei to pay for that. She does see Dany and her dragons as a weapon and a female one is far more useful to her than another gullible man which is exactly what she pointed out to Dany with the sheep reference. But I have to say, the look Daenerys gives Olenna when she says that isn't exactly agreeing with her. She's listening, she's smiling, but she's not exactly buying it. Dany has learned a LOT about following her own instincts and not the advice of others. She's spent years in Essos listening to everyone else give her advice. Like Jon, she's now making her own decisions even at the risk of angering her own bannermen the same as he did in deciding to go south to meet her. Yeah, I agree that Dany isn't 100% buying this advice quite yet. But things could change when she hears word of Euron and Cersei utterly annihilating Yara's fleet and her Dornish allies. Olenna's words will resonate a lot more when this happens and will start to seem like the truth. I think it's kind of sad to see Olenna reduced to this utterly vindictive person, but it certainly makes sense for the story and after everything that happened to her. It shows you that basically anyone could end up this way, not just the crazy Sand Snakes (who were probably always nuts.)
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Post by Lovely Lyanna on Jul 27, 2017 20:18:22 GMT -5
So wanting to limit civilian deaths is a 'touchy feely politically correct view'? And not just a basic moral good? Yes that kind of thinking is a touchy feely politically correct view. This is war. If you are going to war it's just better to get in, kick ass, and then clean up the mess. Plus it always aggravates me when people start talking about limiting casualties. It's not that people will not die, you are simply changing who will die. Personally I would want those that supported the opposite side to die rather than my own people. I love the character of Dany and I certainly do not mind her getting on the Iron Throne, but I want it to be realistic. She needs to kick ass. I mean they just lost the Iron Fleet and I assume Dorne's army. Obviously people died. While those people were not the small folk from King's Landing, they were the small folk of Dorne and the Iron Islands. I don't see how saving one group over another is any better. People are dying either way. I'm sorry but that whole sanctimonious crap put forth by Tyrion and Varys just reeked of political correctness. People are perfectly capable of being self reliant. They have the ability to reason for themselves. They whole idea of some sort of nanny state where everyone loves you as a leader is just ridiculous. You cannot conquer something and think that everyone is going to love and worship you. They keep ridiculing Viserys for believing the people drink secret toasts to his health and cry out for their true king, but Visery's view is no dumber than thinking I'm here to conquer, but I want everyone to feel good about it. In order to make everyone feel good, I am going to sacrifice all of my supporters that followed me, so the small folk will worship me because as you can see I'm just wonderful and so good at ruling. Just ignore that debacle in slaver's bay and stop looking at those dragons. They don't breathe fire, they only fart rainbows.
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Lils
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Post by Lils on Jul 27, 2017 21:18:25 GMT -5
So wanting to limit civilian deaths is a 'touchy feely politically correct view'? And not just a basic moral good? Yes that kind of thinking is a touchy feely politically correct view. This is war. If you are going to war it's just better to get in, kick ass, and then clean up the mess. Plus it always aggravates me when people start talking about limiting casualties. It's not that people will not die, you are simply changing who will die. Personally I would want those that supported the opposite side to die rather than my own people. I love the character of Dany and I certainly do not mind her getting on the Iron Throne, but I want it to be realistic. She needs to kick ass. I mean they just lost the Iron Fleet and I assume Dorne's army. Obviously people died. While those people were not the small folk from King's Landing, they were the small folk of Dorne and the Iron Islands. I don't see how saving one group over another is any better. People are dying either way. I'm sorry but that whole sanctimonious crap put forth by Tyrion and Varys just reeked of political correctness. People are perfectly capable of being self reliant. They have the ability to reason for themselves. They whole idea of some sort of nanny state where everyone loves you as a leader is just ridiculous. You cannot conquer something and think that everyone is going to love and worship you. They keep ridiculing Viserys for believing the people drink secret toasts to his health and cry out for their true king, but Visery's view is no dumber than thinking I'm here to conquer, but I want everyone to feel good about it. In order to make everyone feel good, I am going to sacrifice all of my supporters that followed me, so the small folk will worship me because as you can see I'm just wonderful and so good at ruling. Just ignore that debacle in slaver's bay and stop looking at those dragons. They don't breathe fire, they only fart rainbows. This goes against the entire theme of GRRM's novels. For Dany to just go in and rain fire down on people would be glorifying war in a series where it is depicting the horrors of it. If you want something that has no political ramifications for violence against civilians, I suggest playing Call of Duty.
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Post by Envie on Jul 27, 2017 21:28:22 GMT -5
I think we need a topic change ... So here's a thing .... It's been noted that Tyrion very cleverly left out the bit about "and bend the knee" in his note to Jon Snow inviting him to Dragonstone as Daenerys requested. This is a curious thing because while I see why he might want to just omit that part, it's sort of setting Jon up a bit since that's Dany's expectation and Jon doesn't know that going into it. Hmmm! ...
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Lils
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Post by Lils on Jul 27, 2017 21:40:47 GMT -5
I think we need a topic change ... So here's a thing .... It's been noted that Tyrion very cleverly left out the bit about "and bend the knee" in his note to Jon Snow inviting him to Dragonstone as Daenerys requested. This is a curious thing because while I see why he might want to just omit that part, it's sort of setting Jon up a bit since that's Dany's expectation and Jon doesn't know that going into it. Hmmm! ... Nice segue way gif. Being the second missive Jon received from a Queen, I can't imagine that Jon doesn't know what Dany expects.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Jul 27, 2017 21:42:14 GMT -5
Props for the Pie Comment. And they said it wasn't a popular phrase...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 21:45:07 GMT -5
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Post by Lovely Lyanna on Jul 27, 2017 22:58:50 GMT -5
This goes against the entire theme of GRRM's novels. For Dany to just go in and rain fire down on people would be glorifying war in a series where it is depicting the horrors of it. If you want something that has no political ramifications for violence against civilians, I suggest playing Call of Duty. I am way to old to play silly video games, but you all are certainly welcome to. Certainly there are ramifications, but do you really believe there are no political ramifications for trying to play nice? What about your supporters. You are saying is it is alright for Dany's supporters to die, but not O.K. for the King's Landing people because for some reason they have to feel good about being conquered. The political ramification of that is that pretty soon you will have no supporters. And yes Mods I am happy to move along because this may be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. Even Sansa recognized that and tried to tell Jon. Since the beginning of time supporters are rewarded and those that are opposed are punished. We can go around congratulating ourselves on how honorable we are, but isn't that what brought about the downfall of Ned?
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Lils
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Post by Lils on Jul 27, 2017 23:04:16 GMT -5
Props for the Pie Comment. And they said it wasn't a popular phrase... That was probably one of my favorite moments from the wedding. It ended up being a joke that my husband and I would use. Just randomly we're like "Oh look, the pie!"
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