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Post by breakfest on Jul 28, 2017 3:34:12 GMT -5
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Post by konradsmith on Jul 28, 2017 4:04:13 GMT -5
Without getting too deep in this back-and-forth and getting into how it might reflect on modern politics, there is a strategic benefit that Tyrion and Varys outline for not wanting to be perceived as a foreign invader who'll burn everything down just to win. And it's not completely motivated out of humanitarianism because as per Tyrion's plan, a siege, KL civilians would still die in large numbers. But that could press them to turn against Cersei instead of just, you know, killing them all with her. The plan didn't work, at least at the outset, because they didn't know Euron's capabilities. But that's not to say that it absolutely couldn't have worked. Blowing up all of KL right at the outset of the war would be a Pyrrhic victory barely worth presiding over. Ellaria and Olenna insist on it because they just want to kill Cersei and don't care about how things proceed when the war is over. Yara insists on it because she's still very bloodyminded and hardnosed given her Ironborn upbringing.
Machiavelli of course said one should either "caress or crush" people. And GrrM and D and D are thinking more in terms of older concepts of war than modern ones. But their plan would still crush Cersei. It simply wouldn't crush all of KL and its populace. It didn't work, mind you. Which might vindicate the harsher approach in Dany's eyes for a time. But I really don't think we're supposed to then think that that the Olenna approach was actually a desirable option. They'd have the capitol then granted, albeit with next to no citizens alive and the infrastructure decimated. But I doubt much else would fall in place as a result of that. That's what Cersei tried and she's not exactly united the kingdoms, has she? Varys and Tyrion's approach was to try and win over allies. That's not being weak. Proving oneself too brutal and then expecting loyalty is as unwise as being too soft. In this sense Tyrion and Varys are being much more Machiavellian than Olenna and Ellaria. One must know who to caress as well.
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Post by breakfest on Jul 28, 2017 4:44:07 GMT -5
Look I get that it's a TV show, and you can want your character to play out the arch-pragmatist in order to realise what you want them to realise. It's using the real-world language that's particularly confounding to me. I'm not sure how political correctness or nanny state really apply to anything in Westeros, nor really how they relate to Tyrion and Varys' belief in protecting civilian life during conquest.
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Post by konradsmith on Jul 28, 2017 5:19:28 GMT -5
Look I get that it's a TV show, and you can want your character to play out the arch-pragmatist in order to realise what you want them to realise. It's using the real-world language that's particularly confounding to me. I'm not sure how political correctness or nanny state really apply to anything in Westeros, nor really how they relate to Tyrion and Varys' belief in protecting civilian life during conquest. Yeah that's getting way too modern to be in any way applicable. Really the best we could work with in terms of political language that would actually apply to Westeros would be getting into St. Augustine's Just War theory or some Greek and Roman stuff. And as per GrrM's insistence, Machiavelli. Even bringing up Hobbes would be too anachronistic. But to bring up modern day buzzwords...doesn't really suit the subject matter in any meaningful way.
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Post by Envie on Jul 28, 2017 5:26:49 GMT -5
Being the second missive Jon received from a Queen, I can't imagine that Jon doesn't know what Dany expects. True, Jon's been around enough to know what Kings (Stannis) and Queens want. They want fealty. He couldn't give it to Stannis as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch (and probably was glad), and now he's leader of his own people who have named him a King too. He said in his speech though, he never wanted it, didn't ask to be a king, and they named him king which he accepted because Winterfell and the north is his home. This was an important clue as to how Jon feels about the whole kings and queens thing. There's a lot of misguided fans out there think Jon Snow should sit the Iron Throne but they don't seem to really understand who Jon is at heart. He doesn't want to be ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. He wants to defeat the White Walkers and secure his home. Bending the knee to a queen to get that doesn't seem like much of a price to pay in the bigger picture.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 5:41:25 GMT -5
So wanting to limit civilian deaths is a 'touchy feely politically correct view'? And not just a basic moral good? Yes that kind of thinking is a touchy feely politically correct view. This is war. If you are going to war it's just better to get in, kick ass, and then clean up the mess. Plus it always aggravates me when people start talking about limiting casualties. It's not that people will not die, you are simply changing who will die. Personally I would want those that supported the opposite side to die rather than my own people. I love the character of Dany and I certainly do not mind her getting on the Iron Throne, but I want it to be realistic. She needs to kick ass. I mean they just lost the Iron Fleet and I assume Dorne's army. Obviously people died. While those people were not the small folk from King's Landing, they were the small folk of Dorne and the Iron Islands. I don't see how saving one group over another is any better. People are dying either way. I'm sorry but that whole sanctimonious crap put forth by Tyrion and Varys just reeked of political correctness. People are perfectly capable of being self reliant. They have the ability to reason for themselves. They whole idea of some sort of nanny state where everyone loves you as a leader is just ridiculous. You cannot conquer something and think that everyone is going to love and worship you. They keep ridiculing Viserys for believing the people drink secret toasts to his health and cry out for their true king, but Visery's view is no dumber than thinking I'm here to conquer, but I want everyone to feel good about it. In order to make everyone feel good, I am going to sacrifice all of my supporters that followed me, so the small folk will worship me because as you can see I'm just wonderful and so good at ruling. Just ignore that debacle in slaver's bay and stop looking at those dragons. They don't breathe fire, they only fart rainbows. I can see where Dany's team is coming from. Dany isn't exactly new to war- she conquered Slaver's Bay by thinking there were clear good and evil divides, but as she found out in Mereen- it's not always (in fact pretty much never) the case. She is trying to make a good image for herself, Cersei has been spreading various rumours about her, so it would be best not to proliferate those lies. But i can see your point- people are going to be dying anyway, i'm afraid Dany is just delaying the inevitable. I wonder why they didn't discuss Cersei blowing the Sept up- that should have given them the indication of what Cersei is capable of. She will do anything and everything to retain her position as Queen. At some point Dany is going to have to accept that war has its cost.
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Post by Lils on Jul 28, 2017 10:47:12 GMT -5
Being the second missive Jon received from a Queen, I can't imagine that Jon doesn't know what Dany expects. True, Jon's been around enough to know what Kings (Stannis) and Queens want. They want fealty. He couldn't give it to Stannis as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch (and probably was glad), and now he's leader of his own people who have named him a King too. He said in his speech though, he never wanted it, didn't ask to be a king, and they named him king which he accepted because Winterfell and the north is his home. This was an important clue as to how Jon feels about the whole kings and queens thing. There's a lot of misguided fans out there think Jon Snow should sit the Iron Throne but they don't seem to really understand who Jon is at heart. He doesn't want to be ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. He wants to defeat the White Walkers and secure his home. Bending the knee to a queen to get that doesn't seem like much of a price to pay in the bigger picture. You're completely right. That's the thing that gets overlooked with Jon. He's a reluctant leader, both as Lord Commander and now as King. I honestly think he'd be content with a normal existence once this is over.
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Post by UnmaskedLurker on Jul 28, 2017 12:18:10 GMT -5
True, Jon's been around enough to know what Kings (Stannis) and Queens want. They want fealty. He couldn't give it to Stannis as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch (and probably was glad), and now he's leader of his own people who have named him a King too. He said in his speech though, he never wanted it, didn't ask to be a king, and they named him king which he accepted because Winterfell and the north is his home. This was an important clue as to how Jon feels about the whole kings and queens thing. There's a lot of misguided fans out there think Jon Snow should sit the Iron Throne but they don't seem to really understand who Jon is at heart. He doesn't want to be ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. He wants to defeat the White Walkers and secure his home. Bending the knee to a queen to get that doesn't seem like much of a price to pay in the bigger picture. You're completely right. That's the thing that gets overlooked with Jon. He's a reluctant leader, both as Lord Commander and now as King. I honestly think he'd be content with a normal existence once this is over. Well, yes. Jon does not want to rule the North -- let alone rule Westeros. And Dany believes her birthright is to lead Westeros. Those observations are precisely why I tend to think that at the end of the series, Dany will be dead and Jon will be the King of Westeros. The only way to win the Game of Thrones is not to play the Game of Thrones. After all, GRRM has promised a bittersweet ending. No one is going to get exactly what he or she wants -- and some of the characters we come to care for will die.
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Post by Lovely Lyanna on Jul 28, 2017 12:37:57 GMT -5
Look I get that it's a TV show, and you can want your character to play out the arch-pragmatist in order to realise what you want them to realise. It's using the real-world language that's particularly confounding to me. I'm not sure how political correctness or nanny state really apply to anything in Westeros, nor really how they relate to Tyrion and Varys' belief in protecting civilian life during conquest. Yes, but using the modern world language was merely my way of expressing what I thought of their plan. You all do not seem to quite get my point, but to me their plan felt way too modern for Westeros. it also felt rather naive, especially coming from Tyrion and Varys. I am not trying to claim that war is great and there are no consequences. The first time I saw the Olenna scene, I felt like I am so over this clever old lady and she is just focused on revenge. The second time it felt more like there is no polite way to wage war so go be a dragon or your head may end up on a spike.
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Post by Lovely Lyanna on Jul 28, 2017 12:56:24 GMT -5
I really do not appreciate being called deplorable, simply because I don't believe you can defeat Cersei by trying to be nice about war. I mean saying it could of, would of, should of worked, except Euron was bigger and badder and we did not want to pull all of the stops out because we want to have a kinder, gentler war is not much consolation to those that just died. By the way whipping out the Geneva Convention after fussing about me using modern language does not really work. If you want to stop the argument then simply stop arguing, but do not be condescending.
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Post by Lils on Jul 28, 2017 13:33:42 GMT -5
You're completely right. That's the thing that gets overlooked with Jon. He's a reluctant leader, both as Lord Commander and now as King. I honestly think he'd be content with a normal existence once this is over. Well, yes. Jon does not want to rule the North -- let alone rule Westeros. And Dany believes her birthright is to lead Westeros. Those observations are precisely why I tend to think that at the end of the series, Dany will be dead and Jon will be the King of Westeros. The only way to win the Game of Thrones is not to play the Game of Thrones. After all, GRRM has promised a bittersweet ending. No one is going to get exactly what he or she wants -- and some of the characters we come to care for will die. Bittersweet doesn't always mean death. I honestly think it will be similar to LOTR, where magic will disappear from the world. Dany would lose her dragons. Whether or not the Iron Throne is still in existence, I don't know. But I think it would be too predictable for Jon and/or Dany to die. Death is more tragic and less bittersweet. Not being able to return to that same innocence is bittersweet. Hunger Games was another example of this.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 13:36:12 GMT -5
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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Jul 28, 2017 14:55:04 GMT -5
I've always thought that Dany does not survive in the end. She joins Drogo in the Night Lands after giving birth to a child. (Jon's child)
That doesn't mean that she can't take the Iron Throne...and even love someone else. Now, the show may give us a different ending. I wouldn't be surprised...that's like Tyrion's possible 'Targness' It may not be an issue in the show. They've cut whole storylines and tons of characters and I'm not even sure that we'll ever find out in the books. I think GRRM is giving us enough clues to get our radar tuned to it, but it may always be a mystery. He's said that he's going to leave some things unresolved. I think this would be a perfect example. There's compelling evidence for BookTyrion to be Aerys bastard (I'm 95% convinced)but it may be a non-issue for the show.
However, I do know that ShowTyrion sure loves anything dragon...keep an eye on Dinklage as he strolls around Dragonstone...he's always finding dragon themes....and the scene in the Mereen dragonpit was pure gold.
Melisandre is very much humbled...she even admits that "those who don't worship the Lord of Light can serve his cause." That's completely different from where she started out...burning anyone who didn't convert. I think this new attitude is something that the showrunners wanted to show us...and even if Carice was missing her baby, I think she's a good enough actress to use that angst to show a different side of Mel. I think when she ultimately dies, she will be a much more sympathetic character to a large part of the audience. She may even sacrifice herself for the greater good. This is her redemption arc.
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Post by breakfest on Jul 28, 2017 15:05:10 GMT -5
I really do not appreciate being called deplorable, simply because I don't believe you can defeat Cersei by trying to be nice about war. I mean saying it could of, would of, should of worked, except Euron was bigger and badder and we did not want to pull all of the stops out because we want to have a kinder, gentler war is not much consolation to those that just died. By the way whipping out the Geneva Convention after fussing about me using modern language does not really work. If you want to stop the argument then simply stop arguing, but do not be condescending. I didn’t call you deplorable, I called the contents of your posts deplorable. Which might be a bit strong but they were definitely bad. The Geneva Convention was brought up, a bit facetiously admittedly, precisely because you used those modern terms. When your criticisms about the concern for civilian lives above all else in a situation of war are couched in classic modern-day anti-liberal language that doesn’t even remotely make sense in the context, expect to be questioned on those terms.
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Post by Lovely Lyanna on Jul 28, 2017 20:21:17 GMT -5
I really do not appreciate being called deplorable, simply because I don't believe you can defeat Cersei by trying to be nice about war. I mean saying it could of, would of, should of worked, except Euron was bigger and badder and we did not want to pull all of the stops out because we want to have a kinder, gentler war is not much consolation to those that just died. By the way whipping out the Geneva Convention after fussing about me using modern language does not really work. If you want to stop the argument then simply stop arguing, but do not be condescending. I didn’t call you deplorable, I called the contents of your posts deplorable. Which might be a bit strong but they were definitely bad. The Geneva Convention was brought up, a bit facetiously admittedly, precisely because you used those modern terms. When your criticisms about the concern for civilian lives above all else in a situation of war are couched in classic modern-day anti-liberal language that doesn’t even remotely make sense in the context, expect to be questioned on those terms. My comments were not deplorable. They were not even bad. As I said Tyrion's reasons for his plan seem too modern. It's like saying I am here to conquer, but I want you to like me while I'm doing it, so rather than striking hard and swift, I am going to drag this out into siege warfare so it can go on for years. You did not question me, you were just snide. Further my comments were in no way anti liberal. I just used modern language because their plan of attack seems terribly modern and does not fit. Perhaps because I am much older than most of you, I have lost a great deal of any belief that I had back in my twenties that war can be avoided. My old view of believing that you can reason with anyone (even Cersei) and if I am just polite enough, understanding enough, and respectful enough everything can eventually be worked out satisfactorily has left me. I am just too jaded to believe that anymore. It feels as if team Dany has this idea that because they have the best intentions possible, they think they can do this sensibly with little bloodshed. That just feels they are projecting the fact they have good intentions onto everyone else, and in response everyone is going to be honorable and above board. That belief just circles back around to Ned. Between that and Dany's experience in Meerreen it appears as if they want to do the same thing and just hope for a different result. As I stated previously when watching the episode the first time I was just over Olenna. With the second view she made more sense. By the way did you catch Cersei's line to Jaime about building a dynasty to last a thousand years? That felt like a shout out to Hitler and for some reason gave me more of a sense of urgency on behalf of Dany. P.S. Never say that I am anti-liberal. That is extremely hurtful to someone whose grandfather worked in FDR's administration and whose father greatly supported JFK and Carter. I myself voted for Clinton, Gore, etc. Just because I get tired of having modern sensibilities foisted off onto people that are obviously not much on democracy does not make me evil incarnate that wants to carpet bomb civilians. For heaven's sakes the characters are attempting to be King or Queen and rule. For all of Varys' talk of looking out for the realm he is certainly no Thomas Jefferson.
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