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Post by TheMadQueen on Jul 28, 2017 22:09:20 GMT -5
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alcasinoroyale
King of Winter
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Jul 28, 2017 23:09:17 GMT -5
Guys, please sort out your issues with each other in PM's. We need to move forward from this topic.
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moiaf
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Post by moiaf on Jul 29, 2017 6:49:57 GMT -5
I've always thought that Dany does not survive in the end. She joins Drogo in the Night Lands after giving birth to a child. (Jon's child)That doesn't mean that she can't take the Iron Throne...and even love someone else. Now, the show may give us a different ending. I wouldn't be surprised...that's like Tyrion's possible 'Targness' It may not be an issue in the show. They've cut whole storylines and tons of characters and I'm not even sure that we'll ever find out in the books. I think GRRM is giving us enough clues to get our radar tuned to it, but it may always be a mystery. He's said that he's going to leave some things unresolved. I think this would be a perfect example. There's compelling evidence for BookTyrion to be Aerys bastard (I'm 95% convinced)but it may be a non-issue for the show. However, I do know that ShowTyrion sure loves anything dragon...keep an eye on Dinklage as he strolls around Dragonstone...he's always finding dragon themes....and the scene in the Mereen dragonpit was pure gold. Melisandre is very much humbled...she even admits that "those who don't worship the Lord of Light can serve his cause." That's completely different from where she started out...burning anyone who didn't convert. I think this new attitude is something that the showrunners wanted to show us...and even if Carice was missing her baby, I think she's a good enough actress to use that angst to show a different side of Mel. I think when she ultimately dies, she will be a much more sympathetic character to a large part of the audience. She may even sacrifice herself for the greater good. This is her redemption arc This has always bothered me. And I'm not picking on you but you expressed something a lot of fans believe. I think Dany outgrew khal Drogo a long time ago. Their values are diametrically opposed to each other and while a part of Dany might still love him, I could never imagine the two of them being together now. He is her past and I think we see that clearly in the show HOTU vision when Dany encounters them beyond the Wall she reminisces about her past but when her dragons call to her, she lives khal Drogo and her son behind. She walks away from them. Another issue is that Dany never asked Mirri when she would be reunited with Drogo, she asked him when will he be as he was, to which Mirri gave her that answers. And furthermore, Mirri doesn't say Dany will go to Drog, she says he will return to her. But I'm just nitpicking there. Bottom line, I don't think Dany is supposed to return to Drogo especially as we've already been told there is nothing on the other side.
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moiaf
Mother of Dragons
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Post by moiaf on Jul 29, 2017 6:53:27 GMT -5
Well, yes. Jon does not want to rule the North -- let alone rule Westeros. And Dany believes her birthright is to lead Westeros. Those observations are precisely why I tend to think that at the end of the series, Dany will be dead and Jon will be the King of Westeros. The only way to win the Game of Thrones is not to play the Game of Thrones. After all, GRRM has promised a bittersweet ending. No one is going to get exactly what he or she wants -- and some of the characters we come to care for will die. Bittersweet doesn't always mean death. I honestly think it will be similar to LOTR, where magic will disappear from the world. Dany would lose her dragons. Whether or not the Iron Throne is still in existence, I don't know. But I think it would be too predictable for Jon and/or Dany to die. Death is more tragic and less bittersweet. Not being able to return to that same innocence is bittersweet. Hunger Games was another example of this. I have to be honest, but after GRRM revealed that Berric is a fire wight, I feel like Jon's chances of survival have gone down. And while Jon might not be exactly like Berric because of his bloodline and in the books he wargs into Ghost, he's sort of undead. Which now makes me wonder why Berric is still part of the show. Is there something Jon needs to learn from him?
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Envie
Vhagar
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Post by Envie on Jul 29, 2017 8:24:26 GMT -5
Bittersweet doesn't always mean death. I honestly think it will be similar to LOTR, where magic will disappear from the world. Dany would lose her dragons. Whether or not the Iron Throne is still in existence, I don't know. But I think it would be too predictable for Jon and/or Dany to die. Death is more tragic and less bittersweet. Not being able to return to that same innocence is bittersweet. Hunger Games was another example of this. I have to be honest, but after GRRM revealed that Berric is a fire wight, I feel like Jon's chances of survival have gone down. And while Jon might not be exactly like Berric because of his bloodline and in the books he wargs into Ghost, he's sort of undead. Which now makes me wonder why Berric is still part of the show. Is there something Jon needs to learn from him? I think this is part of the 'what qualifies as magical if magic is removed from the world?' line of theories. We don't know if that's the route GRRM is going with the end, but it's a possibility. If that's the case, is Dany magical? On the show she's immune to fire. She didn't come back to life, she just never died when in the fire like the humans she burned. Is Bran magical? The children of the forest and the three eyed raven were magical but they didn't vanish from the world (so that wasn't how it ended the last time around). Maybe, instead of having infinite lives, Jon is just Jon at the end, mortal again with no more lives after the one he's got? "Make the best of the life you have" seems to be all he really wants anyways.
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Post by Balerion's Whiskers on Jul 29, 2017 8:39:26 GMT -5
Another issue is that Dany never asked Mirri when she would be reunited with Drogo, she asked him when will he be as he was, You definitely have a point there and I'll concede that Dany has outgrown Drogo. I just don't believe that both of them (Jon and Dany) will survive. The king references are too frequent for Jon not to be king....but that could simply mean KitN. (but I don't think so)Jon has never sought to rule. In every instance it was thrust upon him and I think it will be the case for Westeros...but I'm betting that Kings Landing and the Iron Throne will be destroyed and the rule will come from Winterfell (or a rebuilt Harrenhal?) I agree with you that Jon and Beric's situations are somewhat different...that BookGhost will preserve Jon's humanity, but he's still been dead. The ramifications of that have yet to have been felt. Chances are, the show will simplify things and we won't get any further explaniation...Bran is the only warg we've been shown and the topic wasn't touched with Jon...if he'd gone into ShowGhost, he would have seen what was going on, instead he saw nothing. The divergence from canon doesn't bother me though. The show has to be simplified because there is so much going on internally in the books that would be impossible to convey in the show.
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Post by Lady Sansa's Direwolf on Jul 29, 2017 8:47:58 GMT -5
Which now makes me wonder why Berric is still part of the show. Is there something Jon needs to learn from him? I think his purpose is to show Jon how to live with what's happened to him. Each time Beric returns, he leaves another part of himself behind. Jon left behind 'the boy', the moody loner who sat in the corner but when the shit hit the fan, he was the one at the front of the charge. But he's still trying to come to grips with the question of 'why am I here?' Melisandre didn't provide him with any purpose, I think that will come from Thoros of Myr and Beric.
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Lils
Moondancer
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Post by Lils on Jul 29, 2017 10:18:29 GMT -5
Bittersweet doesn't always mean death. I honestly think it will be similar to LOTR, where magic will disappear from the world. Dany would lose her dragons. Whether or not the Iron Throne is still in existence, I don't know. But I think it would be too predictable for Jon and/or Dany to die. Death is more tragic and less bittersweet. Not being able to return to that same innocence is bittersweet. Hunger Games was another example of this. I have to be honest, but after GRRM revealed that Berric is a fire wight, I feel like Jon's chances of survival have gone down. And while Jon might not be exactly like Berric because of his bloodline and in the books he wargs into Ghost, he's sort of undead. Which now makes me wonder why Berric is still part of the show. Is there something Jon needs to learn from him? Maybe I'm an optimist, but I don't think that Jon is the same as Beric. The rituals done to resurrect them both are different and just...I don't know, they seem really different in terms of consciousness. If the theories about Jon and Dany having a child are right, then wouldn't that mean Jon isn't a wight? Wights are just dead, but Jon is alive? You could even argue that Shireen's death paid for Jon's life?
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Lils
Moondancer
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Post by Lils on Jul 29, 2017 10:19:25 GMT -5
I have to be honest, but after GRRM revealed that Berric is a fire wight, I feel like Jon's chances of survival have gone down. And while Jon might not be exactly like Berric because of his bloodline and in the books he wargs into Ghost, he's sort of undead. Which now makes me wonder why Berric is still part of the show. Is there something Jon needs to learn from him? I think this is part of the 'what qualifies as magical if magic is removed from the world?' line of theories. We don't know if that's the route GRRM is going with the end, but it's a possibility. If that's the case, is Dany magical? On the show she's immune to fire. She didn't come back to life, she just never died when in the fire like the humans she burned. Is Bran magical? The children of the forest and the three eyed raven were magical but they didn't vanish from the world (so that wasn't how it ended the last time around). Maybe, instead of having infinite lives, Jon is just Jon at the end, mortal again with no more lives after the one he's got? "Make the best of the life you have" seems to be all he really wants anyways. Ohhh! I like that! I never thought of that before.
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Post by Lovely Lyanna on Jul 29, 2017 12:26:34 GMT -5
Guys, please sort out your issues with each other in PM's. We need to move forward from this topic. Yes. Please do so. Also please forgive me for having an opinion and expressing it and then having the audacity to stand up for myself when I was insulted and talked down to with the usual condescending attitude that springs forth whenever someone says something that someone else incorrectly tries to turn into some kind of insult about liberals. What really makes me angry though was that fact that all of you wanted to give the thumbs up when my post and opinions were called deplorable and then trot out the Geneva Convention and some sort of stupid children's video game as if I was personally water boarding people. Because obviously you are right, it is a much better plan to have your neighbor starve you death than have a foreign army at least give you a fighting chance. I'm sorry if my standing up for myself somehow makes you uncomfortable while you thumbs up those types of attitudes because that's not very liberal now is it? You will not have to worry about it anymore. I am moving along and you can go back to talking about the really important things such as whether or not you ship Dany and Jon and whether or not you like someone's dress. We would not want to answer a valid question unless it can just be a snide put down now would we.
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alcasinoroyale
King of Winter
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Jul 29, 2017 13:27:01 GMT -5
Guys, please sort out your issues with each other in PM's. We need to move forward from this topic. Yes. Please do so. Also please forgive me for having an opinion and expressing it and then having the audacity to stand up for myself when I was insulted and talked down to with the usual condescending attitude that springs forth whenever someone says something that someone else incorrectly tries to turn into some kind of insult about liberals. What really makes me angry though was that fact that all of you wanted to give the thumbs up when my post and opinions were called deplorable and then trot out the Geneva Convention and some sort of stupid children's video game as if I was personally water boarding people. Because obviously you are right, it is a much better plan to have your neighbor starve you death than have a foreign army at least give you a fighting chance. I'm sorry if my standing up for myself somehow makes you uncomfortable while you thumbs up those types of attitudes because that's not very liberal now is it? You will not have to worry about it anymore. I am moving along and you can go back to talking about the really important things such as whether or not you ship Dany and Jon and whether or not you like someone's dress. We would not want to answer a valid question unless it can just be a snide put down now would we. I think things are being taken out of context here. As for your posts, it's a complicated situation when there is a time of war and you have a right to an opinion and expressing it, I don't have an issue with that. But when three people (two of which are mods) are stepping in to try and ease the situation, the better solution is to move on. I understand your frustration, but this has nothing to do with whether I agree or disagree with you or not. It becomes a disrespect to me, Moiaf, Nic, and the other members of the board. Also, I'm not specifically a Jonerys fan, I've learned to tolerate it to an extent because that's where the story is going, but I don't necessarily like it. And while it might seem that this board is 100% pro Jonerys, we have a lot of members who are Stark fans, who are Lannister fans, Baratheon fans and I doubt that every single one of them is behind it. But again, in this case, I think the best thing to do is move forward. And btw, that goes for everyone, if you're truly upset with something someone posted and the argument keeps continuing, I think a good thing to do would be to contact the person and try to understand each other, try to reach a compromise or contact one of the mods.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Jul 29, 2017 15:15:10 GMT -5
Still sad Pilou and Richard Dormer didn't make it to the opening credits! They deserved it, dammit And whoever is in charge of the credits really needs to put the damn Lion in King's Landing.
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Lils
Moondancer
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Post by Lils on Jul 29, 2017 15:19:27 GMT -5
Still sad Pilou and Richard Dormer didn't make it to the opening credits! They deserved it, dammit And whoever is in charge of the credits really needs to put the damn Lion in King's Landing. I was expecting the lion too! There's no reason for the Baratheon symbol to be there anymore.
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Envie
Vhagar
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Post by Envie on Jul 29, 2017 16:38:27 GMT -5
Still sad Pilou and Richard Dormer didn't make it to the opening credits! They deserved it, dammit And whoever is in charge of the credits really needs to put the damn Lion in King's Landing. I was expecting the lion too! There's no reason for the Baratheon symbol to be there anymore. Yep, I agree. Cersei would be outraged! She took the throne just as anyone else has taken it and proclaimed herself Queen Cersei of House Lannister so King's Landing should be the lion and she deserves it for whatever time she manages to hold onto it!
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breakfest
Moondancer
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Post by breakfest on Jul 29, 2017 16:43:15 GMT -5
Been thinking about this one and wondering what their thought behind it is. Maybe, since Cersei claims to be the legitimate ruler through inheritance, she still has to maintain her status as part of the Baratheon dynasty? Otherwise it would look like the coup that it was. I don't know. It probably should be the lion though.
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