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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 22:34:43 GMT -5
Jon is far from a pragmatist. He's idealistic as can be. Tywin and Roose are better examples. guess we'll have to agree to disagree because i think book jon is slowly becoming more and more pragmatic. The baby swap maybe, but I can't think of many other examples. He's still wanting to run off and save his sister at the end of ADwD.
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Post by alcasinoroyale on Apr 18, 2017 22:35:28 GMT -5
Anyway, CASTBOWL is in the lead.
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Post by archanabrownwalker on Apr 18, 2017 22:54:37 GMT -5
Dany is one of the heroes of the story, we aren't meant to see her go crazy Show has a clear distinction between good and bad characters. This is probably going to be off-topic for a show thread, but i think the Battle For Dawn in the books will be anything but a good vs bad conflict. So much so that i am not even sure UnJon will be a good guy in ADOS. I would not be surprised if he turns out to be The Prince That Was Promised.....to The Others
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 23:04:08 GMT -5
Dany is one of the heroes of the story, we aren't meant to see her go crazy Show has a clear distinction between good and bad characters. This is probably going to be off-topic for a show thread, but i think the Battle For Dawn in the books will be anything but a good vs bad conflict. So much so that i am not even sure UnJon will be a good guy in ADOS. I would not be surprised if he turns out to be The Prince That Was Promised.....to The Others Not true at all. Is Sandor good or bad? What about Jaime? Or Theon?
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Post by archanabrownwalker on Apr 18, 2017 23:24:46 GMT -5
Not true at all. Is Sandor good or bad? What about Jaime? Or Theon? Compared to the books, I meant. There are always exceptions of course but I was generally speaking. In the books, Sandor is even more grey, for example. As for Jamie, he has undergone a transformation. In his case, it is probably the opposite. In the books, Jamie clearly distances himself from Cersei whereas on the show, he is in a conflicted state. On the show, the Others will be the clear bad guys from what we have seen so far. Whereas GRRM has categorically stated that that's not the case in the last two books. Show Tyrion is largely a good guy. In the books, not at all. At one point, he rapes a sex slave in Volantis. Book Tywin is never nice to anyone whereas on the show, he was friendly to Arya.
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Post by moiaf on Apr 19, 2017 7:12:38 GMT -5
Dany is one of the heroes of the story, we aren't meant to see her go crazy Show has a clear distinction between good and bad characters. This is probably going to be off-topic for a show thread, but i think the Battle For Dawn in the books will be anything but a good vs bad conflict. So much so that i am not even sure UnJon will be a good guy in ADOS. I would not be surprised if he turns out to be The Prince That Was Promised.....to The Others Not true at all. Is Sandor good or bad? What about Jaime? Or Theon? Compared to the books, I meant. There are always exceptions of course but I was generally speaking. In the books, Sandor is even more grey, for example. As for Jamie, he has undergone a transformation. In his case, it is probably the opposite. In the books, Jamie clearly distances himself from Cersei whereas on the show, he is in a conflicted state. On the show, the Others will be the clear bad guys from what we have seen so far. Whereas GRRM has categorically stated that that's not the case in the last two books.Show Tyrion is largely a good guy. In the books, not at all. At one point, he rapes a sex slave in Volantis. Book Tywin is never nice to anyone whereas on the show, he was friendly to Arya. Source? I haven't seen anything from GRRM that would lead us to believe that the Others wouldn't be considered "bad guys" In fact he calls them inhuman.While I do think Dany is one of the "good guys" in a gray shade, being a hero and being a good guy doesn't necessarily go hand in hand. As @nictarion already noted there are characters in the series who would not be considered good guys yet have done heroic things. Jaime killed the Mad King, Theon helped Sansa escape, Sandor decides to help the brotherhood save the world. As for the good vs. evil, that's not how I see where the show is going or the books. Let's take the Others/Wight Walkers for example. The best way to view them, I think, is as a computer virus that was created to destroy SPAM mail but it eventually evolved to destroy all emails. Does this make the computer virus evil? No, of course not, it's a computer virus. It's doing what it was created to do, it just took it to the next level. However, does this make the virus bad? Yes, it makes it really really bad. No one wants all their emails to be deleted without their consent. Juxtapose to the Others are the human antagonist of the series. Now, I thought that Cersei would be killed at the end of season 7 but it appears she will not and after thinking about it I realize it makes sense. Throughout the series we've seen actual evil, from characters like the Mountain, Ramsay, Vargo Hoat, The Tickler, etc. As oppose to the Others the evil things that they do are not beyond their control, they are quite capable of stopping themselves, yet they continue to do these things because they want to, because it advances their interest or they merely enjoy doing it. So, now we move to season 8 where we might have characters like Cersei and Euron as counterparts to the Others. They'll be doing things that benefit them that would be considered detrimental to the human struggle for survival. Because the War for Dawn is a battle between life and death, as the Others are the embodiment of Death. The story becomes much more complex, you have those who are naturally inclined to fight to help others (Jon, Dany, Brienne, etc) and those who are more selfish or use to be selfish also deciding to set aside their own interest for the greater good (Jaime, Theon, Bronn, etc). They'll be fighting beings who merely exist to destroy like on the planet, because that's what they were programmed to do. However, then you have a second layer of human antagonist. So Team Life, can't just focus on killing the Others, they also have to focus on keeping human evil at bay, because there is always someone who wants to benefit from a disaster. The irony of all this is that it was the human's themselves that caused the greatest harm to the people of Westeros, who handicapped them from being able to fight full force against death. In the end the pure evil didn't come from the Others but actual flesh and blood, living people.
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Post by moiaf on Apr 19, 2017 7:19:07 GMT -5
Jon is far from a pragmatist. He's idealistic as can be. Tywin and Roose are better examples. guess we'll have to agree to disagree because i think book jon is slowly becoming more and more pragmatic. guess we'll have to agree to disagree because i think book jon is slowly becoming more and more pragmatic. The baby swap maybe, but I can't think of many other examples. He's still wanting to run off and save his sister at the end of ADwD. While Jon might be more pragmatic after his death experience, he'll still be a good guy. What Jon did with the baby-swap was morally ambiguous but it was done in order to protect people. People like Tywin get off on being able to impose their power over other people. What he does is to the benefit of his and his own, it hasn nothing to do with the greater good. It's selfish and capricious. Jon might be force to do things that he would not have thought to do before but it will be to save others, to help humanity survive the death apocalypse coming down on them. And perhaps some of the things he'll have to do, will focus on the human antagonist. In order for humanity to survive he might have to do things that would be considered dishonorable but will have to be necessary. As an example I can see him sending his little sister to assassinate Cersei or Euron. Old Jon wouldn't have done that but new Jon understands that if these two are allowed to continue to cause havoc the human race will be doomed.
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Post by archanabrownwalker on Apr 19, 2017 12:20:30 GMT -5
Source? I haven't seen anything from GRRM that would lead us to believe that the Others wouldn't be considered "bad guys" In fact he calls them inhuman.I could not find one of his interviews on youtube where someone in the audience asked him if Others are an exception in the world where nobody is an good or bad. GRRM answered that he has two more books to write and there is so much about the Others that we don't know yet. Short of an explicit yes or no answer which he almost never gives, it looked like he meant that we should not judge the Others as evil just yet. Even Lady Gwen said on one of Radio Westeros podcast that there might be a twist coming and the current perception of Others being pure evil might be too simple to be true. I will look for that youtube video over the weekend.
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Post by moiaf on Apr 19, 2017 12:34:18 GMT -5
Source? I haven't seen anything from GRRM that would lead us to believe that the Others wouldn't be considered "bad guys" In fact he calls them inhuman.I could not find one of his interviews on youtube where someone in the audience asked him if Others are an exception in the world where nobody is an good or bad. GRRM answered that he has two more books to write and there is so much about the Others that we don't know yet. Short of an explicit yes or no answer which he almost never gives, it looked like he meant that we should not judge the Others as evil just yet. Even Lady Gwen said on one of Radio Westeros podcast that there might be a twist coming and the current perception of Others being pure evil might be too simple to be true. I will look for that youtube video over the weekend. I would definitely like to hear what he says. But as I said, even if the Others aren't evil, which I wouldn't consider them to be, they are still a threat to humanity. I don't believe for a second that they will somehow be shown to be misunderstood beings. There are fan theories about everything out there, but really the only persons who know are GRRM and Dan and Dave.
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Post by moiaf on Apr 19, 2017 12:36:15 GMT -5
Source? I haven't seen anything from GRRM that would lead us to believe that the Others wouldn't be considered "bad guys" In fact he calls them inhuman.I could not find one of his interviews on youtube where someone in the audience asked him if Others are an exception in the world where nobody is an good or bad. GRRM answered that he has two more books to write and there is so much about the Others that we don't know yet. Short of an explicit yes or no answer which he almost never gives, it looked like he meant that we should not judge the Others as evil just yet. Even Lady Gwen said on one of Radio Westeros podcast that there might be a twist coming and the current perception of Others being pure evil might be too simple to be true. I will look for that youtube video over the weekend. Here is a good video on what the twist with the Others might be at the end. It's not so much that they aren't bad guys but who and how they came to be and how Jon and Dany are connected to them.
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Post by katjushka on Apr 19, 2017 12:59:12 GMT -5
Source? I haven't seen anything from GRRM that would lead us to believe that the Others wouldn't be considered "bad guys" In fact he calls them inhuman.I could not find one of his interviews on youtube where someone in the audience asked him if Others are an exception in the world where nobody is an good or bad. GRRM answered that he has two more books to write and there is so much about the Others that we don't know yet. Short of an explicit yes or no answer which he almost never gives, it looked like he meant that we should not judge the Others as evil just yet. Even Lady Gwen said on one of Radio Westeros podcast that there might be a twist coming and the current perception of Others being pure evil might be too simple to be true. I will look for that youtube video over the weekend. Of course he won't answer questions like that with simple answers, that would spoil the story.. And I think we already had that twist, they were created as a protection. I hope there is more to them and we see a deeper story in the books but I don't expect them to be very morally complex.
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 19, 2017 13:04:09 GMT -5
I think the Others (should their origins in the books be the same as they are on the show, which IMO is likely) have a little more complexity than just straight villains because of how they came to be. This is probably what Martin is alluding to. They were once First Men who were stabbed with Dragonglass and created by the CoTF to combat the Andals. They were more or less bred to be killing machines in service to a cause so their eventual rebellion over their masters could be looked at as a warped kind of "species claiming its freedom and revenge against its oppressors" story.
Their goal is to wipe out humanity so they're going to be cast as the villains but from their perspective, they may feel justified in doing so which is always a more interesting way to write your villains than just straight "evil".
But in the end, I don't think there's going to be some secret "the Others are the real heroes of the story" development in the books. They're obviously the main antagonist to the heroes and I think when Martin is talking about there being more complexity, he's probably referencing the "Well you were the ones who made us into unstoppable killing machines, what did you expect us to do?" aspect of their existence.
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Post by archanabrownwalker on Apr 19, 2017 13:21:03 GMT -5
I hope there is more to them and we see a deeper story in the books but I don't expect them to be very morally complex. That's exactly what i was thinking too. It would make so sense if just like everyone else on Westeros, in their head, Others are doing the "right things".
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Post by moiaf on Apr 19, 2017 13:23:17 GMT -5
I think the Others (should their origins in the books be the same as they are on the show, which IMO is likely) have a little more complexity than just straight villains because of how they came to be. This is probably what Martin is alluding to. They were once First Men who were stabbed with Dragonglass and created by the CoTF to combat the Andals. They were more or less bred to be killing machines in service to a cause so their eventual rebellion over their masters could be looked at as a warped kind of "species claiming its freedom and revenge against its oppressors" story. Their goal is to wipe out humanity so they're going to be cast as the villains but from their perspective, they may feel justified in doing so which is always a more interesting way to write your villains than just straight "evil". But in the end, I don't think there's going to be some secret "the Others are the real heroes of the story" development in the books. They're obviously the main antagonist to the heroes and I think when Martin is talking about there being more complexity, he's probably referencing the "Well you were the ones who made us into unstoppable killing machines, what did you expect us to do?" aspect of their existence. They have rebelled from their master (The Children) but they are still doing what they were created for, which is to bring death to mankind (or maybe just First Men?). I like to refer to them as Slavers of the Dead, because they kill you and then enslave your body. Which makes me wonder if that's when the Children realized that their creation had gone array. When they started to make other like them and grow beyond their control. Slightly unrelated but now I'm wondering is the ability to skinchange, part of the First Men's blood or was it a "gift" given to them by the Children. Because essentially what the Other's are doing is skinchanging the dead. Hmm, now I'm wondering if Bran has to learn to skinchange the dead in order to stop the Others from controlling them.
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Post by TheArchmaester on Apr 19, 2017 13:26:40 GMT -5
The Others have turned into something far different from the original global warming theme they seemed to have going on. Now we know that 1) they were once men, 2) they have incredibly long-term memory, 3) they are highly intelligent, 4) they are sort of omniscient (they can somehow get into the weirwood net and all that), 5) they are not blind killing machines: they choose who to kill.
Since they are essentially frozen, semi-immortal human beings I wouldn't rule out some kind of understanding, communication or pact to take place in season 8. I'm not really convinced they want to exterminate all life, either.
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